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Egypt massacre *Links May Contain Graphic Images And Videos*

Posted Aug 22, '13 at 4:59pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

9,477 posts

What I feel the US ought to do is support the Egyptian Army.

It's usually good to help the winning side to gain an ally, but if they're open about it, it's a bit counterintuitive to the "Democracy is best" policy.
 

Posted Aug 22, '13 at 6:10pm

hojoko

hojoko

562 posts

What I feel the US ought to do is support the Egyptian Army.


The US does support the Egyptian Army, and has been for years. The question is whether the US should continue to support Egypt's army, despite their decidedly undemocratic actions.
 

Posted Aug 22, '13 at 7:37pm

Maverick4

Maverick4

6,891 posts

It's usually good to help the winning side to gain an ally, but if they're open about it, it's a bit counterintuitive to the "Democracy is best" policy.


Ally would be great, if only to prevent Moscow or Beijing from getting one. Stability is more a factor for me, what with the Suez Canal and a land border with Israel being in play.

The US does support the Egyptian Army, and has been for years. The question is whether the US should continue to support Egypt's army, despite their decidedly undemocratic actions.


Support, in my case, being open acknowledgement of a government and generally backing it, while yours is provinding military equipment to a nation which has an army.
 

Posted Aug 23, '13 at 12:43am

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

9,477 posts

Ally would be great, if only to prevent Moscow or Beijing from getting one. Stability is more a factor for me, what with the Suez Canal and a land border with Israel being in play.

I agree that strategically (politically, militarily, economically, etc) it would be the best move for America. But it seems very hypocritical when one day the government says "we brought prosperity to [insert formerly oppressed nation] by giving the power of free choice to the people" and then "let's support the guys that overthrew their elected leader and then crushed anyone who opposed them". Being labeled as an enemy of democracy might hurt the polls a bit during election time, and that's currently what they care about.
 

Posted Aug 23, '13 at 3:26am

hojoko

hojoko

562 posts

Support, in my case, being open acknowledgement of a government and generally backing it, while yours is provinding military equipment to a nation which has an army.


I'd argue that, for all intents and purposes, they're one and the same. When our government supplies over a billion dollars in aid to a foreign army and continues to supply that aid even after that army has taken legislative and/or governing power, it sends a clear message how our government feels about the new regime. Likewise, when that aid is suspended, it sends another clear message. Since the aid is still rolling in, I'm think we can safely say that the United States government doesn't (currently) oppose the government and is, financially, backing it. Yes, it's not the same as announcing their stance, but c'mon here. Not everything needs to be said for it to be a reality.

And I expect the United States government will keep on supporting Egypt's military, privately or otherwise, because that support exists for a reason. Whether it was under Morsi or Mubarak, the Egyptian Military was a regional power and supported by the west as a regional power to ensure relative stability in Egypt (key word: relative). We delivered weapons and equipment to their military and provided monetary aid to their military so that the west could continue to safely use the Suez Canal (among other reasons). These incentives still exist today, which is why the White House's hesitance to publicly label the military takeover in Egypt as a coup is so unsurprising.
 

Posted Aug 23, '13 at 4:40am

MacII

MacII

1,369 posts

Tariq Ramadan, Horror in Egypt : Saying it once, saying it again.

[...] The central question was and remains that of freedom and democracy for the Egyptian people. What is happening today in Egypt is a travesty and a horror. The country is now at the merci of the Armed Forces ; Egypt will now experience summary execution, arbitrary imprisonment, torture and lying at the highest state level. The generals are fully supported by the West, the United States and Israel. This is the only reality. Those who, in their visceral hatred of the Islamists, today support the military and the police as they kill and repress must one day answer for their choice. They must also reveal to us their analysis, their âdemocraticâ political program drawn up in the shadow of the barracks, at the heart of corruption, at the storm center of a Middle East that is now adrift. Their responsibility is immense, over and above the bitter taste of the words they use to encourage and to justify the violent repression of unarmed civilians. Wretched âliberalsâ, pathetic âprogressives.â
 

Posted Aug 23, '13 at 7:05pm

danielo

danielo

1,748 posts

Its just dont fun. Whyvall the rebels who in start seen to be so nice and good peopels get swarmed by these Islamic zealots who ruin everything?

Like in Lybia, they wanted freedome but as soon as they overthrew Kadafi, the leader of the opposition (AKA rebels) got killed by these Islamic *******s.

Its just not fair..... Why cant they just die or something these Zealots???

 

Posted Aug 23, '13 at 9:32pm

Maverick4

Maverick4

6,891 posts

I agree that strategically (politically, militarily, economically, etc) it would be the best move for America. But it seems very hypocritical when one day the government says "we brought prosperity to [insert formerly oppressed nation] by giving the power of free choice to the people" and then "let's support the guys that overthrew their elected leader and then crushed anyone who opposed them". Being labeled as an enemy of democracy might hurt the polls a bit during election time, and that's currently what they care about.


I vaguely remember a quote by some 19th century politicial or philoskpher as something like "America has no allies or enemies, only interests." Whatever helps The US the most today, I supports. 'Cause thats what its all about. (homey pokey!)

And Hojomo, The Us has suspended most military aid to Egypt. they've also canceled a joint-exercise with Evypt, whoch I would take is *not* a show of support for the Egyptian military.

But I'm not really sure what we're arguing, other than semantics. Which seems a tad frivolous to me...
 

Posted Aug 24, '13 at 8:47am

MacII

MacII

1,369 posts

[quote=Maverick4]Whatever helps The US the most today, I supports.[/quote]

Of course had all your allies at the time followed that logic some 250 years ago, there very likely wouldn't have been any USA, and for all we know you might as well be living under a faraway monarchy still. Democracy, equality, people's rights, huh? Fanatics and extremists, the lot! (Such as indeed it will have been argued, what do you think. All those religious and political radicals and folks weren't shipped abroad for no reason.)

[quote=danielo]Its just dont fun.[/quote]

What gave you the idea these people are fighting and sacrificing their lives for your amusement? Welcome to the real world, where humans are fickle beings and things are far from as neatly clear-cut as many of us might like or imagine them to be.

To make sense of the Egyptian situation, I'm sure the web can be of great assistance to study just its colonial and post-colonial history alone of the past 200 years. Why expect some gaming forum's thread to come up with your easy black-and-white answers.

 

Posted Aug 24, '13 at 10:05am

Maverick4

Maverick4

6,891 posts

Of course had all your allies at the time followed that logic some 250 years ago


But this isn't 250 years ago, now is it?

Democracy, equality, people's rights, huh? Fanatics and extremists, the lot! (Such as indeed it will have been argued, what do you think. All those religious and political radicals and folks weren't shipped abroad for no reason.)


lol wut
 
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