ForumsWorld Events, Politics, Religion, Etc.United States Government Shutdown

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Minotaur55
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Minotaur55
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Alright, so it's been a while since I have posted in WERP, so if I come off newbish or I say something weird it's because I have been detached from my logical/political/taking approximately 30 minutes to post one forum post state of mind for too long. Anyways, back to the subject at hand.

What are your thoughts about the United States Government Shutdown that began Oct. 1 of this year? Do you think it was the only option left or that someone was being unfair about government transactions?

Personally I think the Government Shutdown is not only unfair but completely unnecessary. Not only did the U.S consider going to war with Syria, which in itself was an idiotic idea, but then a couple of weeks later there is a shutdown. And all of this because of a disagreement.

Post what you think about this series of unfortunate events!

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HahiHa
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HahiHa
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I don't think the Syria topic is really linked with the shutdown, if I'm not wrong. But yes, the shutdown was not necessary and avoidable.

Some say Obama is being inflexible, since as a president he should choose what's good for the country. Others say the tea party is holding America in hostage because they want to delay Obamacare coming into effect.

I tend to agree with the latter; the shutdown is a consequence not of the package they voted on, but of the tea party refusing to accept said package. I would expect from a good president not to simply give in to one party's extortion attempts.

The shutdown itself is really unfortunate; the tourism being one of the bigger losers in this poker game.

SSTG
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SSTG
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I guess I can post this link here as well since it's on topic.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-03/republicans-are-no-longer-the-party-of-business#r=read

The Tea Party is responsible for this mess and like I said in the other thread, if the Republicans have any smart people left in their party they need to get rid of these Tea Party idiots because they not only ruin it for them, they are causing trouble to all Americans.

CommanderPaladin
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CommanderPaladin
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Let's face it: The government is simply being childish.
The Democrats, and Harry Reid in particular, are basically saying "If we can't have what we want, we're going to spoil it all for everyone else." It's the political equivalent of a temper tantrum. And despite what the mainstream media would have you believe, it's not the fault of the Right Wing, or the Tea Party, or anyone other than the Leftists. The Republicans offered numerous compromises and deals, even agreeing to fund Obamacare, but Reid and the Democrats refused time and again. They want what they want, and they're willing to act like immature, spoiled little children in order to get it. Obama accidently told the truth earlier when he said "Nobody is winning." He's right there - ultimately, all that anyone responsible for this bureaucratic pissing contest (I'm looking at you, Reid) is getting out of it is an even worse than usual reputation as a politician, and a bruised ego.

And it gets worse. The immaturity involved in this situation, instead of being the minor nuisance that previous shutdowns have been, is being played into an outright boorish assault on the American people. A recent News Article indicates that government authorities have been instructed to make life miserable for people attempting to visit National Parks, Memorials, and other such sites owned by the American people.

There is some hope, though. Reports are coming to light of OpenDefian to this insult and assault on Americans. The government would do well to remember that they answer to US, Not the other way around, and that without us, they cease to exist.


----------
Hope the links work - my link skills need some anti-rust solvent.

CommanderPaladin
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Typo
Second link area should read "Open Defiance" - my computer is acting up a bit.

SSTG
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SSTG
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The Republicans offered numerous compromises and deals, even agreeing to fund Obamacare, but Reid and the Democrats refused time and again.

Another Conservative who sees things differently as usual. Obamacare was modified to death to please the Republican cry-babies but now they decided they don't want it so they try to sabotage everything. All this anti-American BS is sponsored by the criminals who own the Insurance companies.
They don't appreciate being told not to ABUSE their costumers.
All they have to do is scream Socialism and all the right wing nuts follow like Lemmings, strait to their demise. Unlike Lemmings, they don't die though, that's unfortunate.
CommanderPaladin
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CommanderPaladin
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Another Conservative who sees things differently as usual.

Well of course. That's the foundation of debate, and the soul of one of our greatest Freedoms.

the criminals who own the Insurance companies.
They don't appreciate being told not to ABUSE their costumers.

Let me drop a shock on you: I agree. The insurance providers have raised prices far beyond any reasonable point, and the hoops that must be jumped through to get the "care" they provide is usually more of a pain that whatever is wrong with you. (I should know - I've been on the short end of that stick before). That said, I believe that healthcare is in dire need of some serious hangar time and a complete overhaul.

However, I do not believe that Obamacare (which, by the way, is a retread of something Hillary Clinton tried back in the 90's) is the required answer. For starters, it was rammed through without anyone knowing just what all was in it. Remember Nancy Pelosi's (in)famous remark, "We have to pass the bill to find out what's in it?" That right there was a huge warning sign. The only time people insist on you buying something sight unseen is when they're trying to put something over on you.
Then there's the fact that Obamacare increases government involvement in the healthcare industry many times over. This is bad for several reasons, not the least of which is the government's own track record. Given the ineptitude, infighting, and outright corruption that creates situations like the one we presently find ourselves afflicted with, do you really want the government playing puppet master to the people responsible for making sure your body continues to operate properly? Ronald Reagan nailed it when he said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"
Then too there is the fact that the healthcare industry, no matter how immense, is comprised of companies that ultimately are privately owned. By this, I mean they are owned by regular citizens, not by the government. Obamacare renders these companies subject to governmental control, which is one of the principle symptoms, and goals, of Socialism. This flies in the face of the free-market system that is one of the cornerstones of the American system. Make no mistake, standards are necessary, but outright control by the government will not create fair, workable standards but rather corrupt the whole system even more than it already is.

scream Socialism

See above links. Socialism, defined, includes government control of industry and business.

so they try to sabotage everything.

Remind me, who's doing the sabotaging here? Harry Reid and company are the ones who refused all the offered compromises, including the ones that funded Obamacare. If anything, the Republicans are the ones trying to reach an agreement with the Left. They've reached across the aisle, and frankly I think they reached too far, by offering the funding for something they find abhorrent. Those compromises would have given the Democrats what they were after; the only reason they refused was because they want to make this a big political victory by crushing the Republicans so they can have something to crow about.

they decided they don't want it

The Republicans aren't the only ones who don't want Obamacare. The Labor Unions, formerly ardent supporters of Obamacare, have turned against it as they discover its harmful effects. Also, an increasing number of States are rejecting the bill, even at the expense of their federal funding. At this rate, by the time Obamacare reaches full implementation the number of people actually accepting it may be a minority.

anti-American BS

Really? I don't see insurance companies burning American flags or attacking U.S. Embassies.
Debate, discussion, and even disagreement form one of the main pillars of the American design. Just because someone holds a differing opinion does not automatically make them anti-American.

and all the right wing nuts follow like Lemmings, strait to their demise. Unlike Lemmings, they don't die though, that's unfortunate.

What a wonderfully mature and intelligent comment! I'm so very glad that you chose to enrich this discussion with your pithy and profound statement.
SSTG
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SSTG
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Then too there is the fact that the healthcare industry, no matter how immense, is comprised of companies that ultimately are privately owned. By this, I mean they are owned by regular citizens, not by the government. Obamacare renders these companies subject to governmental control, which is one of the principle symptoms, and goals, of Socialism. This flies in the face of the free-market system that is one of the cornerstones of the American system. Make no mistake, standards are necessary, but outright control by the government will not create fair, workable standards but rather corrupt the whole system even more than it already is.


Then why is it working fine for other countries such as Denmark and Norway? Why wouldn't it work for the US?

What a wonderfully mature and intelligent comment! I'm so very glad that you chose to enrich this discussion with your pithy and profound statement.

You're absolutely right! Being exposed to so much corruption, fights and idiotic comments by some Republicans (noticed I said some?), you get to the point where you paint them all with the same brush.
I apologize for that and I'll try not to do it again. Anyway, if I do, someone will make sure to remind me, I'm pretty sure of that.

I'm not trying to avoid the responsibility of my acts but coming from a different country that I left to be with an American woman and seeing how poorly people are treated by riches who own corporations such as Insurance and drug companies, it's very hard for me not to lose my temper once in a while.

I see countrymen abusing and not caring for each other on a daily basis then, when disaster occur (hurricane, tornado, etc), everybody help each other.
Why can't it be like this everyday?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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And despite what the mainstream media would have you believe, it's not the fault of the Right Wing, or the Tea Party, or anyone other than the Leftists. The Republicans offered numerous compromises and deals, even agreeing to fund Obamacare, but Reid and the Democrats refused time and again. They want what they want, and they're willing to act like immature, spoiled little children in order to get it.

Could you tell me what the Republicans offered to debate about? The only thing I heard is they wanted to delay it for another year, which basically means "we will never accept it". And as I know right party politicians in general, the offered compromises would aim at disarming it as far as possible, not making it better.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Could you tell me what the Republicans offered to debate about?

What I heard is there's normally a budget committee that's supposed to reach an agreement so this sort of thing doesn't happen, but the Dems wouldn't negotiate, so it didn't pass.
Minotaur55
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Minotaur55
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Ah, this is nice. Controversy amongst political ideals. *inhales* That's delicious.

I don't think the Syria topic is really linked with the shutdown, if I'm not wrong.


Oh I'm not saying that is any relation between the two cases, I'm just saying that the U.S Government has not got it's priorities straight if one week they consider war and the next they shut down (I know it is actually a bit longer then a week).

The Tea Party is responsible for this mess and like I said in the other thread, if the Republicans have any smart people left in their party they need to get rid of these Tea Party idiots because they not only ruin it for them, they are causing trouble to all Americans.


What I heard is there's normally a budget committee that's supposed to reach an agreement so this sort of thing doesn't happen, but the Dems wouldn't negotiate, so it didn't pass.


Why would the Democrats not negotiate? Don't these people consider how their actions effect the economy let alone the whole government itself? If they just flat out said no then it is no wonder the government shutdown. What is the risk for the Democrats for negotiating?
Maverick4
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Maverick4
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Neither side wants to be seen as giving in to the other - so neither side does. It's why the House passed the bill they did. It's why Harry Reid declared said bill dead-on-arrival in the Senate. And why the Senate passed a bill knowing it would fail the house.

So anyone who is naive enough to put the blame solely on one party or the other is more partisan than Washington. Both parties failed - Republican and Democrat. Calling one or the other names and what not is just what got us into this mess in the first place. :/

jeol
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jeol
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Then why is it working fine for other countries such as Denmark and Norway? Why wouldn't it work for the US?

That's kind of a fallacy. What works for some people group will not work for everyone. People are raised differently, with different ideals, in different religions, and what they expect from their government differs in that sense. And, believe it or not, different governments work for different people.

In essence, some people want to earn what they have and give to who they want (something called investing), while others want to be 'fair' and let the government control the means of the population. Obviously, these two different people groups don't match and couldn't ever. Even though it is the point of having a democracy, you'll still end up with an unsatisfied people group either way, and you'll have situations like this.

A world where everything is 'unified' is a scary world.
SSTG
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SSTG
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So anyone who is naive enough to put the blame solely on one party or the other is more partisan than Washington. Both parties failed - Republican and Democrat. Calling one or the other names and what not is just what got us into this mess in the first place. :/

Yep it's a vicious circle, Fox news come up with BS and Liberal media laugh at them which keep the people divided and hate each other.

I think government should intervene when some people, in the name of Freedom, abuse the freedom of others.

For example, Republicans keep talking about Free Market and how wonderful it is.
Isn't Free Market supposed to encourage competition?
Then why is it okay for publishing companies to hike the book prices and work together to keep the cost higher instead of offering better deals for the customers?
I think the government should intervene when companies abuse of their power.

Big companies buy smaller ones so they can control everything and kill the competition, that's not Free market if the customers don't benefit in the end.
Maverick4
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Maverick4
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The closest the Us has ever been to a true laissez-faire type economy was around the 1880's, in the age of the Robber Barons. Since then, we've evolved into more of a mixed economy. In my ideal world, you'd have most of the Government's minor roles (mail delivery, AMTRAC, etc) privatized, and regulation would exist to keep the market free for businesses and consumers alike.

As for media outlets, I ussually check my FOX and MSNBC apps so I can laugh at the opinion pieces, then I go over to CNN, BBC, RT, and Al-Jazeera English. By the I've seen enough view points to make my own opinion about things. Ussually top it off with regular checks on Drudge throughout the day, for misc news.

I'd like for Obama to have an open door meeting with Senate and House leaders from both sides of the aisle, with a command that nobody will leave the room until they work something else. But I'll eat my foot if that ever happens. And you can quote me on that.

EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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I think government should intervene when some people, in the name of Freedom, abuse the freedom of others.

Then their intervention gets considered abuse itself.

Big companies buy smaller ones so they can control everything and kill the competition, that's not Free market if the customers don't benefit in the end.

But it seems that the customer does benefit most of the time. For example, Wal-Mart allows the consumers to keep more money in their pockets than if they bought identical/similar products elsewhere. If the customer didn't feel a benefit, they wouldn't shop there and the company wouldn't get big.

I'd like for Obama to have an open door meeting with Senate and House leaders from both sides of the aisle, with a command that nobody will leave the room until they work something else.

Progress in Congress? Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!

But I'll eat my foot if that ever happens. And you can quote me on that.

Just in case, feet pair nicely with a good Bordeaux.
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