ForumsWEPRRussian Jet shot down - Syrian Crisis General Discussion

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Doombreed
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Doombreed
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There is some controversy about this . As you are probably well aware right now, Turkish F-16s shot down a rusian military Jet over the Syrian border. Out of the 2 pilots, one may have survived while the other has most likely been killed by Syrian rebels. The rescue chopper was also hit by the rebels and forced to make emergency landing in a friendlier zone nearby.

The exact location of the Russian jet when it was shot down is a subject of much speculation. The current generally accepted theory is that the jet may have briefly flown over Turkey, but there was no airspace violation and the plane was shot down over Syria.

Whether there was a warning, or not was also a subject of much discussion. Turkish authorities reportedly claim that their pilots warned the Russian Jet at least once before locking on and shooting it down.

Here is where it gets complicated. Normally, during a violation of airspace and if the plane violating said airspace does not heed to the instructions it is given via radio, fighters are scrambled for interception. Standard procedure. However it seems highly unlikely that the Russian Jet did not respond to being intercepted like that. It is very unclear what happened but any 'sane' pilot would probably heed the warning of a fighter that is right behind and locked onto him, even if no airspace violation took place.

Russia is already hitting back hard in terms of economy. Some sources claim that all the benefits Turkey reaped from the Russian embargo are now gone and that move will inevitably harm the Turkish economy.

What are your thoughts on this? What do you think on the surrounding mystery? Did Turkey actually harm itself as some analysts claim?

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Doombreed
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Doombreed
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Erm, they aren't supposed to take any money, they promise so.

What you bolded actually clearly states the opposite

So, they are lying about their finances. Fool me once, you know...

Just like that? No proof, nothing. Thank you

worked engine could add a lot of downward moment, making its calculated height higher.

Yes, but it is consistent with the height of the jet according to the Turkish authorities. the Turkish authorities reported the jet was flying at 19000 feet i.e. 5800 meters. The jet was at 4300 according to the scientists, so it could easily have been 1500 meters higher if what you are saying is true.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Erm, they aren't supposed to take any money, they promise so.

Basically, what Doombreed said. Your quote disagrees with you. (tip: the important part is "for human rights research&quot

Rocket with infrared sensor hits engine, one stops working, another continues, decentralization of thrust and unexpected turn in result. Because turn was to the left, I suppose right engine continued to work.

If that was the case, it would not have continued straight on after the turn, it would have continued spiraling. Besides, even in this case, the momentum of the jet and the remaining engine thrust strongly forward, if slightly biased.
Gremlion
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Gremlion
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"Neither ... nor... " in the English language means negation of both parts
They say that they don't seek funds. and that they don't accept them, and despite these claims they accept them.

Doombreed
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Doombreed
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They say that they don't seek funds. and that they don't accept them, and despite these claims they accept them.

Τhank you for once again providing no proof whatsoever. You are biased. Take a moment to consider some points and stop dismissing many of them as "US propaganda" or "lying".

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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"Neither ... nor... " in the English language means negation of both parts
They say that they don't seek funds. and that they don't accept them, and despite these claims they accept them.

Neither seek nor accept, yes. Neither seek nor accept any funds "for human rights research". In the English language, this means they can accept funds for other things, just not for human rights research.

I you remember, that is why in their 2010 report they specify, for the 1% income they got from governments that year, that it was for "human rights education only". It does not contradict their statement.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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If research doesn't turn up much evidence to support a point then...more likely than not it's not valid.

-----
That aside, I think we're watering down the complex nature of international relations far too significantly to single issue situations.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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That aside, I think we're watering down the complex nature of international relations far too significantly to single issue situations.

Speaking of international relationships, there is another explanation than oil. Fact is that Russia supports Assad by bombing the armed resistance, foreign extremists or armed Syrian opponents all the same. Turkey on the other hand supports some of those groups and does not like Russia bombing them, especially not the Turkmen, as I've read.

It'll be very difficult to get both parties to agree on a common strategy concerning the future of Syrian leadership, although it seems Russia is no longer as adamant on keeping Assad indefinitely in position as it used to be.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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I think everyone is just waiting to see how the situation unfolds at this rate, and making it up along. There's a short term goal of kicking ISIS out of existence, but beyond that it's just shroudy to the rest of us not on the ground!

One worrying pattern though, is that the world has learnt possibly of the painful necessity of a short term, known evil in secular dictators. Saddam, Gaddafi kept extremists in checks. Of course, that'll sound exceedingly calculative and cruel coming from a non-affected party and history might not repeat itself, but it's a possible point to munch over.

Doombreed
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Doombreed
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I personally think the rise of the extremists became a reality not only due to the fall of multiple Middle east dictators, but also directly due to the intervention of the military powers themselves. Of course these are not the only factors that come into play, but if we were to name the 2 primary ones, I think these would be them.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Grand Duke

Today Russia published data they say confirm the oil trade routes through Turkey and the involvement of the Erdogan family; Erdogan claimed if that was proven, he would step down. This might get very interesting. Though I just read that Erdogan could easily brush that all under the rug if the extremists' oil is mixed with Kurd oil and thus kind of 'whitewash' it.

What I find unacceptable however is how Turks in Russia are mistreated because of the incident. This is just gratuitous hatred.

Gremlion
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Gremlion
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This isn't hatred, hatred is when people burn camps for refugees in EU.
From Russian perspective:
-Turkey has democratically elected government, so all Turks responsible for government actions.
-Turks didn't protest against detaining journalists, which exposed arm dealing with turkish fascists on Syrian territory.
-Turks are fine with thousands of oil trucks stealing Syrian oil
-Because of US/EU sanctions we have decreasing amount of jobs. So, there is needing to kick out some excessive work force, and preferable not from our allies.Turkish workers are mostly builders - can be easily replaced by local population.
-Russian media actually posted letters from these russians living in Turkey with the plea to not make it a witch-hunt. According to them, "Erdogan couldn't do anything, Turkish newspapers for last month posted about Russians bombing Turkey (not turkomans in Syria, they posted about Russians bombing NATO country and NATO not helping)". So, we have prepared in advance soil for provocation. Who is the owner of said media in NATO country, who knows.
-Notice, that people living in Turkey don't petition Erdogan for apologies, which would've substantially changed degree of answer They should make their mind - either they want to be friends with Russia, or not.
-Another moment - right now Russia is interested in developing inner tourism, specifically, sending people to Crimea. So, ban on tourism to Turkey, again, NATO member, not an our ally, is an ok thing from Russian perspective.
-About Turkey wanting Crimea. NATO wants Crimea. Whole point of Ukrainian revolution in 2013 was to break pact with Russia and give Crimea to NATO.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2bb691b61c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb
That project was created before protests started.
Plan B - Cyprus variant, Crimean tartars are ethnic turks, With Ukraine not being part of any defence alliance, Turkey could've captured it.
NATO controls self-proclaimed crimean tartars leaders
http://i.imgur.com/gqYqBce.jpg
And right now these "leaders" do absolutely democratic blockade in attempt to starve and freeze Crimean population.
They blew up energy lines to Crimea, blacking out schools, hospitals, everything... including the ones, where Crimean tartars study and heal.
http://uatoday.tv/society/high-voltage-electricity-lines-blown-up-near-ukraine-s-crimea-538836.html
https://www.rt.com/news/323150-crimea-blackout-ukraine-embargo/

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Grand Duke

Based on research on the so-called Caesar photographs smuggled by a Syrian military defector two years ago, Human Rights Watch has recently revealed some of the stories behind the almost 7000 detainees who died in detention by the government or shortly after.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/16/syria-stories-behind-photos-killed-detainees

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