ForumsWEPRCommunism and Capitalism

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Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

I wanted to open up this topic again...
Hopefully I will get some thoughtful responses :-$
______

I think most people have the wrong view of communism.


The "equal pay" and the "you cant achieve anything" are not much to say. One whole thing of communists want to change is taking away the attention of people away from money. People are not born greedy. It is rather that we try to achieve. Who is to say people are born wanting to get more and more money? We just try to achieve goals. Look at Armorgames. The community here does not get anything over another, yet we are working our asses off trying to get AP. What we call greed comes from the process of people getting money, which usually involves "bad" behavior (The business world is cruel). Bill Gates, however rich, is not greedy.

Capitalism is like taking all of a persons freedoms away at birth and selling it to them when they can afford it it. You cant live without money. You rely on others for earning this money, but those who give it to you dont care of you. Employees are just concerned with getting their profit off you. The problem is, the road to getting a good job, housing, medical care, insurances, etc, are very though and cricket. There is no system for it. This is the freedom you supposedly have in capitalism! You are free to build your own road to happiness. Its like letting a baby do whatever he wants when it cant support itself. The mother should take of it. There is no system to get you settled. What communism does is create this system. No its not taking your freedom away, it is helping you by providing free education, health care, housing...

Its sad to see people say communists are evil, lol. Don't worry, we touch the existing evil with gloves on, it does not contaminate us.

  • 126 Replies
thelistman
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thelistman
1,418 posts
Farmer

Here's what I don't understand Drace. You have extreme distrust of government. So why on Earth would you willingly give all your economic rights to the state and trust them to distribute everything equally? You realize that once the government takes one right, they will take more and more. That is why pure Socialism cannot work. Once the government takes control of your money, they will then take away your basic freedoms. Next your social and political rights are thrown out.

Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

@Thelistman,

Thats what kings did, but the US took a step to ensure that didn't happen didn't they?

I can do the same.
Or maybe I can copy the Us and go for a republic eh?

Agent_86
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Agent_86
2,142 posts
Peasant

They practically lost their lives. I think at this point even if you pleaded for a penny its ok...
My point is, most Americans have no idea the real risk that comes with every investment that they make. If people educated themselves about what they're buying everyday, from groceries to a house, they would understand why they made a bad investment.
Scornic
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Scornic
34 posts
Peasant

Aww man necromancer, you took all the good responses :<
Seriously man, you said that all better than I did. I agree with every point. Out of curiosity, have you taken a college level Econ course?

To Drace:

I see communism in the most basic sense that the production exceeds a lot more then enough to keep the population happy.

But you are ignoring our argument. We keep explaining why capitalize produces far more than Communism, and you respond by saying "But Communism is better because it produces more."

People are happier with more stuff. Its greedy, but its human nature.

Instead of making a profit off the production, give it to the state to make it for the better.

Again you are ignoring our argument. In a Capitalist society, the private firms can make it far better for the consumers. In a free market, everyone is better off. In a communist market, everyone get the same, so there is no competition, and no innovation. "Why should I work hard to make my product better? I get the same portion of bread and milk at the end of the day."

Surely we cab come up with another system as an alternative to communism?

Then tell us one. The argument is Communism vs. Capitalism, not Capitalism vs. some amazing new form of government we have yet to think of.

Like I said earlier.
I have seen and understood today's societies struggles and mistakes. Communism is my way of fixing it.

No its not. You keep saying that it is better, then you ignore how we explain Capitalism's benefits and respond with "But Communism is better." Give us some form of explanation. Pure patriot devotion to one's country is not nearly as much motivation to be innovative as a competitive market.

If its not communism that can do this, then I shall find another way. Until I live to infinity years and establish that capitalism is the best we can get, then I will stop showing hatred to it.

My chances are well.

So basically you hate Capitalism because some people who are better at doing something get more goods? Why is it so bad that someone who works hard and uses their talents can get more goods and services than someone who sits around all day waiting for stuff to be given to them?
Scornic
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Scornic
34 posts
Peasant

Regarding people getting "bailed out,"

This is exactly why America has so many lazy people now. Everyone is used to free handouts. I slept around and got pregnant, now I want child support. I don't feel like working, give me welfare. That farmer is better than me, give me a subsidy.

America is not true Capitalism. It's a market that tries to be capitalist, but the Invisible Hand is weighed down by so many regulations, taxes, tariffs, subsidies, laws, and so forth, that it cannot function properly. If people actually had risks with no government to bail them out, they would be more careful about wasting their money, and making crappy investments.

Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

I was not arguing on that whole post, but somehow you managed to argue :-$

Then tell us one.


You have to work for what you want ^^. I'll have to work to get this idea.

In a communist market, everyone get the same, so there is no competition, and no innovation. "Why should I work hard to make my product better? I get the same portion of bread and milk at the end of the day."


I introduce you the different wage system! Fixes all your unthoughtful arguments in just 5 seconds! WOW!

Don't turn life into a game into a game of where the objective is to produce the best of goods. Your whole perspective is here. Better yet, it is a game of who can get the richest.

What is the point of all these products that are better? Their functions are the same and the only revolutionary ideas come from advancement in science, which is not motivated by money.


So basically you hate Capitalism because some people who are better at doing something get more goods?


Better = Richer?

Heh everyone working the same job gets the same salary.
Its who ever was lucky = richer.

Its all about getting that good education(Which you have to pay for).

And apparently your view of communism is quite different from mine.
necromancer
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necromancer
750 posts
Shepherd

@Scornic- No, I've taught myself most of what I know about economics throough reading and the internet.

@Drace-

Thats what kings did, but the US took a step to ensure that didn't happen didn't they?
I can do the same.
Or maybe I can copy the Us and go for a republic eh?


You might want to look at anarcho-communism
or the similar anarcho-syndicalism
which avoid the problem of an abusive state. Yet still economically fail.

I introduce you the different wage system! Fixes all your unthoughtful arguments in just 5 seconds! WOW!


Haha, you didn't even explain the different wage system and your reasons. Not convincing at all.

Don't turn life into a game into a game of where the objective is to produce the best of goods. Your whole perspective is here. Better yet, it is a game of who can get the richest.


What is wrong with producing better goods? It is more beneficial to both you, the consumers, and your workers.

What is the point of all these products that are better? Their functions are the same and the only revolutionary ideas come from advancement in science, which is not motivated by money.


Better products help people in many ways, they make life more comfortable and lengthen it. Science is very much so motivated by money, that massive particle accelerator in France isn't free now is it? You need lots of money to run experiments and construct prototypes. Businesses that need innovations for their products have the money to fund such.

Heh everyone working the same job gets the same salary. Its who ever was lucky = richer.


Better workers are given higher wages and can get raises, like job experience.

Its all about getting that good education(Which you have to pay for).


The cost for the cheaper private schools to educate an individual pupil is half of the cost public schools incur, and they must be better schools too, or else they would go to private schools instead. Also, an interesting fact, people with incomes under $25,000 are more likely to send their children to private schools than those with over $25,000 (until you get to the massively wealthy people).
Scornic
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Scornic
34 posts
Peasant

I introduce you the different wage system! Fixes all your unthoughtful arguments in just 5 seconds! WOW!

What? Communist societies give everyone equal goods and services regardless of how productive they are.

Don't turn life into a game into a game of where the objective is to produce the best of goods. Your whole perspective is here. Better yet, it is a game of who can get the richest.

No, its not. I'm first and foremost an Economist, and then a Capitalist, and the last thing I care about is money. I'd be content in a normal sized house, with normal food, and a $10,000 car. I don't care for my own jet, a mansion, lobster dinners, or any of that. However, producing the best of goods should be a top priority, because better goods mean happier consumers. I sure hope you aren't trying to argue that its better to have crappy food that makes you sick, and products that break too easily. Better goods are better.

What is the point of all these products that are better? Their functions are the same and the only revolutionary ideas come from advancement in science, which is not motivated by money.

Wrong. You misunderstand the meaning of better. Better means the functions work more the way you would want them to. Advancements in science are completely motivation based. You need money to research anything these days. In a communist society, how is anyone going to get supplies to invent something, or research something? Who would want to? The motivation for innovation comes from either a conflict, such as a war, or a competition, such as a free market.

If I make a car that uses half as much oil as normal cars, I will sell them and make a fortune. In turn, consumers are happy because they cut their oil consumption in half. Its a win-win situation. Yet its motivated by money, but it makes everyone better. You seem to think people in a communist society would have motivation.

Better = Richer?

Heh everyone working the same job gets the same salary.
Its who ever was lucky = richer.

Have you ever had a job? Riches aren't from luck. Whoever does a better job and works harder gets the raises and promotions. It's not like CEOs just pick a name out of a hat. And the super wealthy people make their money through investments or innovations. Its not luck, its hard work and effective us of one's skills.

Its all about getting that good education(Which you have to pay for).

Ok, so basically you are in support of public schooling? There's a difference between wanting equal opportunity in education, and wanting the entire economy to be equal.

And apparently your view of communism is quite different from mine.

I'm an Economics major at a top ranked University. I think I know what Communism it. It seems that you are arguing for some form of government we have yet to think of, that makes everyone happy, and everyone well off, and so to define this utopia you use the term Communism.
Scornic
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Scornic
34 posts
Peasant

Dang, you beat me by 1 minute. I had someone call me halfway through :<

thelistman
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thelistman
1,418 posts
Farmer

@Drace

A republic would go against everything Communism stands for. What happens if people vote for less state programs? You either have to do it (so you no longer have a Communist or Socialist system) or you have to suppress them (now you have a dictatorship). Communism hangs on the fact that everyone wants the system. The problem is that once there is even a slight resistance, it has to be violently put down to stop it. No matter what you do, a Socialist or Communist system cannot be maintained.

Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

We would be better off in the stone age. A mix of modern and the stone age, actually. This being that we keep out scientific knowledge but not the crap products we have. They teach laziness. In communism, you would progress these fields more and a lot slower on these products. I render those products useless.

And if you educated everyone of what communism really is, there would be ton of motivation because then would they know the system is far and was the best for everyone. I believe previous communist states failed to do this. They used aggression.

thelistman
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thelistman
1,418 posts
Farmer

But that's what Communism is... a Stone Age system. We do not exist in the Stone Age anymore. We will never go back to that. We have industrialized and no one will accept going back to the Stone Age, thus Communism will not work or even exist.

TotalReview
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TotalReview
808 posts
Peasant

Wait a second, Drace used to believe in socialism. The original thread was Socialism vs. Capitalism. So now you have moved onto communism, Drace? I am too tired to write out a long comment but I will tomorrow.

thelistman
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thelistman
1,418 posts
Farmer

@TotalReview

According to Communism, the first step is to dismantle Capitalism and turn to Socialism. Communism is the final step.

TotalReview
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TotalReview
808 posts
Peasant

According to Communism, the first step is to dismantle Capitalism and turn to Socialism. Communism is the final step.


I know but they are not exactly the same. I was just saying he changed it a bit.
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