ForumsWEPR5 Point Calvanists

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Noj
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Noj
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Im just curious as to how many 5 point Calvanists we have here. If you are one or have a question about them please speak up!
A five point calvanist believes in the 5 points of John Calvin which are summed up in TULIP,
Total Depravity
we are totally dead in our sin and have nothing to do with our salvation it is entirely up to God.
Unconditional Election
God selected His people before the foundations of the earth were made and He has saved each and everyone of them and shall continue.
Limited Atonement
No one other than the elect can be saved.
Irresistible Grace
The elect can do nothing to avoid being saved.
Perseverence of the Saints
God will keep His people and none of them will fall away and everyone of them will reach their final destination, heaven.

There they are. You may think them cruel but God is gracious to save any of us after we have rebeled against Him. We are like clay and he is the potter, when the potter makes a mistake he can easily destroy the clay and start over. But God has been gracious and has given us a second chance. As for election He does not keep people from being saved through this, but rather saves people that without this none would be saved because we are ALL spiritually dead, and a dead person can do nothing on their own to be revived. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, and we are all dead in our transgressions, without His grace we would all be damned but through His grace some are saved and this is not unfair. Because He created us can He not therefor do what He wants with us?
Please speak up if your a Calvanist and leave your thoughts either way! Thank you!

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samy
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samy
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Samy: Certainly. See this search: http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch ⦠version=31


This could also mean that his heart was hardened by the deeds good did because obviously God can touch are free will indirectly, however maybe as I said before the answer is God will never force someone OR
make it impossible for someone to believe in him.

For Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated.


Verse and text? KJV doesn't count at least to me as a legitimate source. I'll take the ESV or NIV before it any day.
jlel
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jlel
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KJV is still the Bible. I prefer ESV but nothing wrong with the KJV. Btw, the ESV was derived from the same manuscripts as the KJV anyway... So they have similarities.

samy
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samy
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KJV is still the Bible. I prefer ESV but nothing wrong with the KJV. Btw, the ESV was derived from the same manuscripts as the KJV anyway... So they have similarities.


Yea but the KJV is translation that has no basis other than a translation from the Latin manuscript. The ESV and NIV were created with more knowledge of the context that would have been aplied during biblical times. Thus I think adding more truth to their verses.
Parsat
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Parsat
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Admittedly, the KJV did not have access to many of the manuscripts that later versions did utilize. From reading it though, I do believe it is inspired despite its several translational errors. It used the Textus Receptus by Erasmus, who was diligent in his study of Greek manuscripts.

Much of it was derived from William Tyndale's Bible, which did use several different Greek and Latin sources. Having read Tyndale's translation, I think it's even more of an excellent Bible.

Tyndale (edited from 16th century era middle English):

Faith is a sure confidence of things which are hoped for and a certainty of things which are not seen.


KJV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


NIV
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
jlel
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jlel
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The NIV is not as good a Bible as the ESV is though... The NIV has done TOO much interpretation for the readers and have caused the readers to not interpret things for themselves. The ESV still maintains the Greek ambiguity (in some parts) so that the reader can meditate on the word and figure things out by themselves (as well as through the guidance of the Holy Spirit).

Noj
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Noj
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Read Ephesians 1:4 please, NKJV, and tell me what you think it means by this? Even the New living Translation, NRSV, the ASV, The Contemporary English Version, The Good News Translation, The ISV, The KJV, The NAB, The NASB, NCV, and The NIV. This here is clear to me that God has hand selected us. AND YOU CANNOT SAY THIS IS NOT FAIR! What in life is fair? GOD is a just and holy GOD and He created us all, and has everyright to condemn who He wants and to love who He wants!

jlel
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jlel
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GOD is a just and holy GOD and He created us all, and has everyright to condemn who He wants and to love who He wants!


Agreed. If people don't like it, then fine... Why don't they go and make their own Earth and be their own god? Then perhaps finally they'll be happy...
MrMonkey3
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MrMonkey3
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Or he could forgive anyone who truly meant it since you know he is all powerful and loving and everything.....

Noj
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Noj
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But the point is your not going to truly mean it if He didn't select you, Ephesians 2:1, And He made you alive who were dead in trespasses and sin. WE ARE DEAD IN SIN AND WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD UNLESS HE PUTS A WANT IN OUR HEART AND IF HE DOES THAT WE ARE PART OF THE ELECT. If you are dead guess what buddy? Your not doing anything or choosing anything on your own!

MrMonkey3
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MrMonkey3
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I see....so if he didnt choose me I can never do anything good with my life to help others anyway? So next time someone asks for help ill say, sorry buddy I cant do anything good not saved just move along here. Thats basically what your saying that god made you good or bad when supposedly we were all made in his image.

Noj
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Noj
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You don't get it, what is good in God's eyes and what is good in our eyes is entirely different. Helping people and ignoring God and everything He did for us is a sin.

MrMonkey3
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MrMonkey3
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Love your neighbor as yourself. God told us that. So what I could feed starving people, work to get money for charities, achieve world peace and you would say well god didnt choose you so your going to hell anyway.

So whats good in god's eyes then thats so different?

Noj
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Noj
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Look at the 10 commandments and answer 100% honestly you've never broken any of them ever? Think hard on each one as you look at it and remember that hatered is as bad as murder.

MrMonkey3
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MrMonkey3
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Oh yes ive broken all of them im a hit man on the weekends you know. Now you do it and tell me how many youve broken? We can compare our results :P Seriously I realize that everyone has sinned except for christ.

You never answered my quetion whats good in god's eyes that differs from ours? And how come everytime I ask something it always comes back to: we are all sinners nothing you can do even if you want to be good if god says your out your out cause I said so

Parsat
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Parsat
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MrMonkey3: I think you're misinterpreting the issue. What it boils down to is the issue of original sin, that is, the sin we inherited from Adam and Eve that leads to death. Original sin taints our thoughts and desires so that many of the things we as humans like are wrong.

Now you may donate money to charity, feed the poor, help the sick. Those are good things. However, they are hollow if you cannot accept the "ultimate good," or God. How do we know that helping the poor and sick is good? It's a moral code that stems from the beginning, the ultimate good, which is to say God (who, as part of his attributes is all-good and all-loving).

So what you do would be an good act, but not a righteous act unless it has God himself in mind. That is what is different in God's eyes. Unless you have a sense of the ultimate good in the world through Jesus Christ, anything you do will fall short of righteousness. This does not mean that you should murder or steal, for those things are intrinsically evil. What I'm saying is that our sinful natures taint even the good things we do.

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