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seven_11
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seven_11
304 posts
Nomad

Which one do you think is better?
I think that Communism is better because more people have jobs everyone gets food and shelter.

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twigonometry
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twigonometry
144 posts
Nomad

But that's not an economic system with people in it and huge corporations.


Okay, forget my poor example then; let's go to your reasoning directly which boils down to: "Because it hasn't happened in a while, that means it doesn't work."

I think you could use this reasoning on any number of specific examples to demonstrate its weakness as any kind of argument.

No one has spoken Latin as a national language in a really long time, for instance. Does that mean Latin can't function as a language? Or are there extenuating circumstances which led to its death as a common language?
VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

I think you could use this reasoning on any number of specific examples to demonstrate its weakness as any kind of argument.

No one has spoken Latin as a national language in a really long time, for instance. Does that mean Latin can't function as a language? Or are there extenuating circumstances which led to its death as a common language?





That's an oversimplification, capitalism has been tried over and over again with little government regulations and it always became a hell-hole. In Great Brittan there were 9 years olds working in factories while homeless people slept of the street. All the while the rich get drunk with greed, free to exploit the workers in whatever manner they please. Under pure capitalism, the literacy rate would be much lower than it would be in a more socialized society because only the wealthiest of citizens could afford to get their children into school. There would also be no welfare, no social security programs, and very limited health care. It's a proven fact; capitalism needs socialist reform and pure bureaucracy socialism needs capitalistic reform.
Caucheka
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Caucheka
440 posts
Nomad

Hell if i had a nickle for everytime i've seen VoteSocialist post comments in these kinda threads id be a capitalist.

but im saying communism for already stated reasons. in theory it was awesome in practice not so much.

oh and this is a random image i found funny.http://www.failshare.com/uploads/failthumbs/1222346969_KGBKFC.jpg

VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

in theory it was awesome in practice not so much


That doesn't even make any sense. Something needs to be wrong with the theory if in practice it completely fails.
dunadan
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dunadan
360 posts
Nomad

That doesn't even make any sense. Something needs to be wrong with the theory if in practice it completely fails.


Not obviously...
You can have something that looks tremendous on the theory but that fails in practice.
ex: Kyoto protocol.
On the paper, it's great, we just say that every country will reduce their pollution...fantastic!
But in practice, no one does, or just a bit, to be polite...

Communism (or socialism if you want), is the same...
On the paper, it looks quite good, but in practice, you'll always find someone that wants to make more money than his neighboor, or have more power...
dunadan
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dunadan
360 posts
Nomad

and history has proven that humans cannot reach Marxism because of capitalist propaganda telling them so


Sorry for double-post, but I've just seen this,a nd I can't let it go...
You're incredibly baid faithed...(don't know if I can use that expression...)
Capitalism propaganda would explain fail of marxism...good defense!it's not our fault, the ennemy was annoying us!!
Man, if marxism failed, it's also because of its natural failure...
Not everybody wants to be the equal of his neighboor, or whatever...
Freedom and Equality aren't compatible...
VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

In that case, the theory was completely wrong in saying "Yeah, we are going to have a violent revolution and make everything belong to the community and have no internal problems whatsoever; the proletariat are totally selfless, hard working and have no other grievances other than those against the bourgeoisie."

If it works in theory, it works in practice, that's that. Communism DOESN'T work in theory because the theory is all wrong; it's too perfect. A blatant oversimplification that states "Well when it comes to communism, the theory is perfect but it doesn't work" is fallaciouse. In that case I can say "The theory that the world is flat is solid but in practice the world is actually round." The theory is simply flawed if it can't be put into practice, it is far from perfect.

dunadan
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dunadan
360 posts
Nomad

Ok, I agree a bit whith what you say...
I mean, you recognize that communism theory doesn't work...
But I repeat, you can have something that looks great on the theory, and that is in fact absolutely unfeasible in practice!

VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

But that has to mean the theory is fallacious and also had fundementally flawed reasoning. For example the theme that class struggle will always beat out nationalism proved to be completely wrong when World War I broke out. And it happened again when capitalism was even more developed in World War II. The theory in communism about class struggle was novel, but flawed. The theory itself was just wrong to the degree where it wasn't practical.

twigonometry
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twigonometry
144 posts
Nomad

It's a proven fact; capitalism needs socialist reform and pure bureaucracy socialism needs capitalistic reform.


If it's a proven fact, can you show me the proof? You say it's been tried over and over again, resulting in a hell-hole. Do you have names and dates I can read about? You talk about Great Britain - which time period are you talking about? And how do you correlate capitalism with decreased availability to education and health care?

I take your opinions quite seriously, and I need data to evaluate them closer.

I think that ultimately we are very much in agreement. We think it's the duty of government to step in where the private sector fails to meet the need. Our only disagreement seems to be the matter of degree, and I am open to change on this if I see conclusive evidence.

Onto a few specific points - I think planning for one's retirement is a personal responsibility. Social Security is already facing problems due to financial (mis)management (http://www.karlloren.com/healthinsurance/p41.htm). Why am I expected to believe that a committee can manage my money better than *I* can?

I do think that providing for needs of disabled or mothers/children who have been abused or abandoned is an area where ubiquitous government presence is needed. A competitive free market does nothing for these people, because there is no opportunity for profit.

Well, I'm trying to keep my post under "novel" length here. But I look forward to further discourse with you on this! =)
VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

You talk about Great Britain - which time period are you talking about?


You're kidding me, right?


[url]http://www.enotes.com/history-fact-finder/economics-business/what-laissez-faire-capitalism[url]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire[/url]
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,824 posts
Shepherd

Communism is better in theory and capitalism is better in practice.

Simple.

for rl? Capitalism, because it works.

Theory? Communism, because it's a perfeect society.

VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

[url]http://www.rosenoire.org/articles/hist22.php[/url]


Almost PURE capitalism at its best.

Ninjacube
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Ninjacube
584 posts
Nomad

Capitalism wins easy here, because communism lacks any form of free market. Normally, I would rant here about how the free market is essential to everything we know and love, but that takes too long, so I will provide a link to another post which I briefly explained the advantages of the free market.

Click Here

I had quite a few posts in that topic if you feel like reading them all.

Ninjacube
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Ninjacube
584 posts
Nomad

A competitive free market does nothing for these people, because there is no opportunity for profit.


Sorry for the double post, but I just saw that statement and felt the need to say that you sir are, one, wrong; and two, you need to read my posts in the above link.
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