Forums → WEPR → [redirected]If God created all things
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Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.
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I'm sorry for the double post, but I misworded a lot of that.
I said "it would have been better for us", I meant HE thought it would have. In my opinion, God was right.
I also said he gathered up those who beleived the same as him, what I meant was he gathered up the lesser angels that beleived the same as him. He left the humans out of it.
If you have to create free will for it to exist, surely you have to create evil to for it to exist, if God did not create evil, no one would be able to turn evil.
I read this some days ago, it's about the Problem of evil. It's very interesting and really worth reading.
Yet there is natural evil like natural disasters, why do these occur?
That's an excellent, there are evils in the world that having nothing to do with freewill.
Then surely an omnipotent being would know what Man was to do with his free will? If so it makes his actions either an intentional creation of evil or signals that he is not omniscient. Hm?
Yes, in other words God made a mistake. Even if he wanted us to have freewill he could have still as our creator given us the instinct to not want to use that freewill in any way that went against him.
This whole argument of freewill being some sort of an excuse seems a bit like if I were to hand a small child a gun and paired them up with another kid who I knew would tell him to point the gun at other people. Then when that small child shot someone, I just stepped back and said well yeah I gave him the gun but he pulled the trigger so it's not my fault.
Free will is why bad things exist, if you want to label Gd as good and Satan as bad bad things happen because of Satan being able to deceive people to his cause.
Again just as if I were to give a small child a gun and he shot someone. I would be responsible for that happening.
God would be just as responsible for the actions of Satan and responsible for giving us that ability.
Nature is also involved with bad things such as earthquakes and all that jazz. I'm pretty sure God doesn't control the weather but science has already figured out that stuff. They aren't necessarily evil, it's just mother nature.
Again if we are speaking of an omnipotent God, he should be able to to have effect over these conditions and do so without effecting freewill. As the image on the first page says "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."
Okay, this is going to seem wierd at first. However, I think it might make sense.
Why is evil necessarily bad? Couldn't evil actually be a good thing? (That was the weird part...)
For instance, say that you for some reason knew that in order to save 10 people's lives, you HAD (with no alternative) to kill one person. If you didn't kill that one person, the other ten would definetly die. Therefore, killing that one person wouldn't really be "evil" because the alternative were far worse. This is a pretty classic example of "the ends justify the means" theory. But it is too simplistic and obvious to apply to the complexity of god and evil. A better example would be if you reversed the scenario- kill ten people to save one person. You do this because you know something about that one person (they will cure cancer etc) that makes them more valuable. From someone else's perspective, your actions would seem to be evil. Now, ridiculous as it may sound, isn't it possible that the existance of evil actually harms the world less than it would if it didn't exist? Afterall, evil isn't the only "bad" thing. You can also have less "good things." If good and evil cancel each other out (I have no idea why that would be true, but many people believe it), than "evil" would actually be a good thing if it somehow created more good than evil. For instance, the existance of evil makes us appreciate good things more. Or, alternatively, there could be some unknown force that is even worse than evil and cannot be comprehended by humans. Isn't it possible that god knows something we don't?
I hope you find all kinds of holes in this theory, because it will give me something to do.
Why is evil necessarily bad? Couldn't evil actually be a good thing?
Can you tell the good in someone slowly and painfully torturing little kids? There would be nothing good about that.
Can you tell the good in someone slowly and painfully torturing little kids? There would be nothing good about that.
Thats one situation, now for one that is biased to the other side(but not as much of a one sided example as yours).
A serial killer who only kills serial killers, killing is evil, but it will stop more killing(taking 1 murderous life to save 5 innocent lives)
I read in the bible that God and Saitan are actually best friends.
A serial killer who only kills serial killers, killing is evil, but it will stop more killing(taking 1 murderous life to save 5 innocent lives)
Sounds like Dexter.
Again just as if I were to give a small child a gun and he shot someone. I would be responsible for that happening.
God didn't give us the gun, though. It's more like a choice between locking a child up because there's a gun in the house or letting the child walk around the house, hoping he doesn't go after the gun (assuming he knows where it is) and shooting someone.
Again if we are speaking of an omnipotent God, he should be able to to have effect over these conditions and do so without effecting freewill. As the image on the first page says "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."
I don't think God is perfect. He is more perfect than any of us, but that doesn't make him perfect compared to flawless perfection. He may be able, but not willing because he doesn't know for certain whether this will have worse aftereffects. A butterfly can cause a tornado. A sudden stop of the tornado could cause something far worse.
And if God keeps stopping these bad things from happening, he may end up proving beyond a doubt his existence, and making us drones to his will. Then we won't have the free will to exclude him from our lives. Technically, we could walk away, but nobody would do that if God proved himself.
God didn't give us the gun, though. It's more like a choice between locking a child up because there's a gun in the house or letting the child walk around the house, hoping he doesn't go after the gun (assuming he knows where it is) and shooting someone.
Ah ha! Because, you see, the gun has as much a right to exist as the child does. God is in everything, right? So, therefore, god is in the gun. Now, let the gun represent evil, and the child represent humanity. Why would God play favorites? Perhaps god cares just as much for evil as he does for humanity. The most he can do is hope that humanity learns to coexist with evil.
Random thought on this subject, the fact that if your god existed he whould give you free will as a good thing, correct? But according to the same riligions if your good then you go to heaven, when you lose your free will and become a mindless minion of god. In that, he is saying use your free will like he wants you to and you will lose it (basing this argument on the fact that the bible says you will sing the glory of god for eternity or somthing)
Not sure if that is sarcasm since I haven't been getting it lately but aren't we past this Val? >.>
Well ever heard the song "Why Can't We Be Friends?"
There's a story called "The True Story of God." In the story, God is portrayed as an evil dictator who rules the universe with an iron fist. The devil was actually a rebel who went against the dictatorship of God and was tortured for it by God himself. Then he was banned to a fiery domain called Hell and was made its ruler. Ever since, the devil has been plotting the downfall of God and has raised an army of demons to combat him.
That's a real story, but the author received huge, and I mean a sh*t load) of criticism for it.
God didn't give us the gun, though. It's more like a choice between locking a child up because there's a gun in the house or letting the child walk around the house, hoping he doesn't go after the gun (assuming he knows where it is) and shooting someone.
I was using the gun as an analogy for freewill itself. But even in your scenario the person letting the child roam would still have to be held accountable for not properly securing the firearm.
And if God keeps stopping these bad things from happening, he may end up proving beyond a doubt his existence, and making us drones to his will. Then we won't have the free will to exclude him from our lives. Technically, we could walk away, but nobody would do that if God proved himself.
Just because something is proven to exist doesn't mean we lose freewill. We would still be free to choose to follow God or not. If all the text in the Bible were proven to be 100% true then we could base our decision of weather we think this God is really worthy of our devotion or not and we can still freely make this decision.
Faith is far overrated in religion, only considered important to religion, and I highly suspect could qualify as just plain stupid (not necessarily the person holding the faith mind you).
I don't think God is perfect. He is more perfect than any of us,
Captain Picard to Q: I see no reason to call you God, you may simply be omnipotent.
There's a story called "The True Story of God." In the story, God is portrayed as an evil dictator who rules the universe with an iron fist. The devil was actually a rebel who went against the dictatorship of God and was tortured for it by God himself. Then he was banned to a fiery domain called Hell and was made its ruler. Ever since, the devil has been plotting the downfall of God and has raised an army of demons to combat him.
History written by the victor?
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