Forums → WEPR → [redirected]If God created all things
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Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.
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OK, as an agnosticist and someone who is not willing to go through all those pages of discussion, I would like to vent my possible solutions to this contradiction... Please note, I do NOT want to offend anybody, these are merely throughts one COULD have about the matter at hand.
1) Good and evil are in the eye of the beholder. If there is no good or evil, God could have made everything the way it is without judging it. Mankind has started judging things and stated God was pure good (logical enough: he created mankind!).
2) God is not 100% good, hence he could have made evil things. My argument here is that God helps the Jewish people in the Old Testament by KILLING other people! Now how can you explain God killing all the first-borns in ancient Egypt because of one man, the pharao, refusing to let Mozes and his people go? I think a lot of innocent people will have died and it is not very likely a 100% good God would do something like that.
3) God is not all-powerful. This one may be particularly offensive, but I only dare utter it because of what I read in the Bible myself: at some point, Jesus tells the apostles that God is sad whenever an animal as little as a bird dies. Now, death cannot exist against God's Will, but if God does not want anything to die, He surely could have come up with another mechanic, such as no reproduction and eternal life (and chlorophyl) for every being! If God does not like to see something die, He may not be all-powerful (He may have been at some point, though, or maybe He is restraining Himself to prevent accidents from happening in the longrun). (Another thing, besides the point though, that puzzles me about this, is that it implies that the bird in question does not go to Heaven, to God, otherwise God would have no reason to be sad, would he?)
4) God created evil and in the longrun/in the end, it will become apparent why He did so. As a matter of fact, it is often said by firm believers that no man can ever phathom God's ways; this makes this entire thread senseless.
5) What surprises me is that everyone seems to agree that Satan exists. Satan and evil things are not necessarily related, in my opinion. A possible scenario I personally consider quite likely: God created the universe by creating the one small spect that would expand with the Big Bang, already knowing how it will turn out in the end. Evolution takes place on earth (and maybe on other planets too), just like God planned it. During the evolution, perceptions of good and evil emerge and develop. After time, good prevails and life thoughout the universe is like God intended it to become. This theory solve an additional issue: God is said to have created Man as His image. It would seem like God has learned a great deal in His endless existence, like Man has to learn things during life. Now, what if this wise God, the Heavenly Father, like a human father decides that instead of GIVING us Paradise, He wants us to FIND it ourselves by learning about good and evil and finally eradicating evil in ourselves (not with bombs but with contemplation etc.)? Doesn't that make sense? God created the universe and lets us learn about happiness and goodness the same way He learned things in the past. (Yes, I AM aware that a lot of believers may be against any notion that God was not omniscient all along.)
I hope the above contains something new for you to consider. As for myself, I am purely agnostic and all that I am saying is: "I don't know if God exists and in what shape or form". By no means am I claiming anything I said is even remotely true. If we all just try to live a good life towards as many living beings as we possible can, I am sure we will not be scolded by God should He exist; I would find it reassuring that bad people would be punished after their death, so -yes- I do HOPE there is some Great Father waiting for us...
This is God the creator telling his creation not to abuse others that are also created but especially those that were helpless to defend themselves.
Again I will take this as a yes to condoning slavery and if God is in fact against such things a total failure to communicate this. For instance here is a prime chance to condemn slavery which was not taken.
Of course you are right, this verse from the Bible was used to illustrate God's knowledge of slavery, instructions to the judges on how to punish the guilty of abusing slaves but it was also used in displaying God's wrath towards abusing widows and orphans. God's punishment was to put such people to the sword.
I don't consider this murder. I consider this justice.
Exodus 22:22 Mistreatment of widows and orphans:
"Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan,
23) If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry.
24) My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless."
God could have easily have said "If you buy a Hebrew servant, offer him fair wages in compensation of his services to you. If you do not give compensation immediately set him free."
Perhaps God could have said "You shalt not hold another against there will" or even "Thou Shalt Not Own Slaves"
Not in every case no, In fact I would say most thoughts don't lead to action. I know I've had plenty of thought I never acted on. I know plenty of others who have done the same. So punishing just for thinking is just a load.
Here's the way I see early mankind:
God shows Adam around the Garden of Eden and while they're walking Adam starts naming everything He sees. God is impressed with His creation who's displaying cognition of his surroundings.
This implies to me that the first humans were far superior from the animal kingdom. God created man to care for his other created beings. Adam and Eve were the first 'zoo keepers', if you will, but they were also the first gardener's, tending the various plants and trees in the Garden.
God demanded,(He didn't ask us),obedience because He did create 2 special trees that could produce incredible results.
The Bible doesn't talk about mushrooms or other poisonous plants. This concerns me and is just one example that leads me to believe the Bible is perhaps missing a few pages. Why? The Bible states that on the sixth day, God completed His creation.
Science has proven that new mutations have occurred, plants and animals have adapted to changes on our planet and our planets temperature, atmosphere, etc.
If science has proven totally brand new life forms, not just mutations, please, provide this thread some reliable sites?
On to thoughts and slaves:
What was the first thought Eve had when she was first tempted by Satan?
Did she follow through with that thought or, did she drop it?
Does the Bible mention 'employees'? The Bible does mention self employed craftsmen: carpenters, marble cutters, brick layers, etc.
Does the Bible ever refer to masters as bosses?
I don't get hung up on the Bible's phraseology because 'we' don't talk that way today. I stand behind what the Bible says about human beings that are their masters property because I recognize the metaphor for the future "slaves for Christ" that we gentiles, who aren't GOD's original chosen people but we are the next generation or, the church that is mentioned in the New Testament.
Please, can we move along to the "truth" of Jesus Christ and leave the oppression of God's "Mosaic" law, that by the way, Jesus replaced?
[quote]OK, as an agnosticist and someone who is not willing to go through all those pages of discussion, I would like to vent my possible solutions to this contradiction... Please note, I do NOT want to offend anybody, these are merely throughts one COULD have about the matter at hand.
Co1980, I'll be happy to debate scripture references. You provide them since you're making the claims.
It is the polite thing to do to read what has been already posted as those Great Walls o' Text are the references to this current debate.
Thanks.
God doesn't hate us, in fact he loves us. And the entire point of miracles is that there has to be suffering so that miracles are worthwhile.
If I didn't have your arm broken my medical skills would be pointless. The entire point of being able to set bones is that there are broken bones, if there wasn't my bone setting skills would be worthless. Really, God allows suffering just so he can turn around and help a very small fraction of that group and say "see how good I am"? I've seen my moms abusive boyfriend pull similar $hite.
God is not 100% good, hence he could have made evil things. My argument here is that God helps the Jewish people in the Old Testament by KILLING other people!
That's actually a very good point. Not only was it the killing of others it was children as well as animals. Instead of laying a bunch of plagues down causing serious suffering and death God could have simply scoop Moses and his people up and put them far enough away so they would be free then impeded the Pharaoh from being able to follow. No suffering, no loss of life, Gods peeps are free.
it is often said by firm believers that no man can ever phathom God's ways; this makes this entire thread senseless.
I always found this to be nothing more then dodging the issues.
God created the universe by creating the one small spect that would expand with the Big Bang,
That's possible but before we can claim God did it we have to first find evidence he exists. So far each time we point to an event and say God did it we later have found a more plausible explanation suggesting that even if God did it he really wouldn't have been necessary.
Since we are talking about God and evil I would like to share this video.
Whence Cometh Evil?
The way I see it, religion and science can both explain the beginning of the Universe without needing any sort of external support from the other - the real decision between them lies in their methods of supporting themselves - facts or faith.
God created the universe by creating the one small spect that would expand with the Big Bang,
Like what Mage said, this is possible, but the existence of a god itself has no real evidence. Also, the Big Bang wasn't a single particle that exploded, it was all of the matter in the Universe compressed down to an unstable singularity. The Big Bang scientifically is bereft of the need for a god in the equation - due to the lack of time 'before'(dam the limits of our language . . . .)the Big Bang, the law of cause and effect is neutralized. Therefore, there is no logical or scientific need for there to be a cause - meaning that a god would be, in this case, a solution to a nonexistent problem.
That's actually a very good point. Not only was it the killing of others it was children as well as animals. Instead of laying a bunch of plagues down causing serious suffering and death God could have simply scoop Moses and his people up and put them far enough away so they would be free then impeded the Pharaoh from being able to follow. No suffering, no loss of life, Gods peeps are free.
Yes but say if God did scoop moses up just magically, and moved all the isrealites to safety with a snap of his fingers. Don't you think there would a lot more controversy over the story? Not to mention thats a little more harder to believe... I personally think that this was a story to test ones faith, as well as provide proofs as to Gods existance. For instance the parting of the sea. I mean thats fairly close to God snapping his fingers and moving them all to safety, but still provides natural reason to believe in Gods existance.
God doesn't hate us, in fact he loves us. And the entire point of miracles is that there has to be suffering so that miracles are worthwhile.
Again personally I dont agree. I mean the huge question right now with me as an individual, is why would God cause suffering, if he could prevent it all? I mean miracles can still be proven even if everything was good. If a man started to walk on water, everyone else would think that they were either drugged, or that it was a sign and a miracle. Miracles can happen whether or not everyone was good.
And the other question i have, is if God is o great, and Satan is so evil.. Well why has God been killing everyone, and we've heard nothing about Satan... I mean this guys supposed to be powerful, i mean powerful enough to wage a war with God... Why exactly hasn't he done any horrible atrocities to us yet? Sure we can argue sin, but thats a personally choice to do it, and whether or not Satan tempts us, he's not causing floods, or torturing people...
I've seen my moms abusive boyfriend pull similar $hite.
I'm sorry, and I know how difficult this type of abuse is to watch. My husband has warned his mom of the 'sorry' boyfriend she's clinging to.
God could have simply scoop Moses and his people up and put them far enough away so they would be free then impeded the Pharaoh from being able to follow. No suffering, no loss of life, Gods peeps are free.
Yes, GOD could have sent all of the heavenly host of angels to fly the Israelite to safety and spared Pharaoh and Egypt those terrible plagues. Would we have a written record of such a 'miracle' today? I doubt it. Further more, GOD was building an army, His first Army. He had to train the Israelites how to obey. The Israelites were, at that time, worshiping false gods too, along side their Egyptian masters. In other words, ,GOD had to get everyone's attention and He was working on His schedule, not Pharaohs.
Since we are talking about God and evil I would like to share this video.
The Narrator on the video claims that Christians use a 'cop-out' to opt out of explaining the qualities of both good and evil to describe GOD.
I can understand where you get the idea since clearly GOD created the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God had the knowledge prior to creating the tree. It can also be argued that how can GOD be omnipotent if he's ignorant? How can GOD warn us of a sinful nature if He doesn't have knowledge of sin?
My Bible tells me that GOD can't tolerate sin nor be in the presence of it. No where in the Bible does it say, that I know of, that God is ignorant of sin, it just says He can't tolerate it.
Seems this thread needs a bit of atheism.
<atheism>
So here is a valid argument against god.
If god is all good and this is the best of all worlds
This is not the best of all worlds
There is no god.
</atheism>
<idealism>
Evil is just an illusion
Therefore there is no evil
If there is no evil there is no good
This there is no good there is no god.
</idealism>
If god is all good and this is the best of all worlds
This is not the best of all worlds
There is no god.
can u be positively positive that this isn't the best world?
Would god a being of pure good/perfection create a world that was not the best? Would that not make him evil?
Don't you think there would a lot more controversy over the story? Not to mention thats a little more harder to believe.
Yeah because the Bible always shies away from stories that are hard to believe like talking snakes, global floods, and people raising from the dead. So it just makes sense God would rather torture an entire population finally killing there children and live stock (killing the livestock twice?).... >_>
Also if God wasn't so dodgy about proving his existence (if he is real) a story like that could be far more believable.
Yes, GOD could have sent all of the heavenly host of angels to fly the Israelite to safety and spared Pharaoh and Egypt those terrible plagues. Would we have a written record of such a 'miracle' today?
Yes I think an entire population of people being lifted off the ground and safely carried miles away to freedom would leave a good number of records in it's wake.
Further more, GOD was building an army, His first Army. He had to train the Israelites how to obey. The Israelites were, at that time, worshiping false gods too, along side their Egyptian masters. In other words, ,GOD had to get everyone's attention and He was working on His schedule, not Pharaohs.
First off what does God need with an army? Second I would think after being lifted up into the air and carried far away, then having the thing that just did that say 'obey me'. They might be just a bit willing to listen at that point. Wouldn't you?
The Narrator on the video claims that Christians use a 'cop-out' to opt out of explaining the qualities of both good and evil to describe GOD.
He was referring to how some claim God is outside the realm of explanation, which I agree is a cop-out.
If god is all good and this is the best of all worlds
This is not the best of all worlds
There is no god.
I don't think this really disproves a god, though it does at least strongly indicate a god that is not all good.
Evil is just an illusion
Therefore there is no evil
If there is no evil there is no good
This there is no good there is no god.
This second one does a bit better job. Good and evil I would say do exist but as subjective concepts. If god is this, this would then indicate god is also a subjective concept. Which would seem likely given how many religions there are all making there own claims.
If god is all good and this is the best of all worlds
This is not the best of all worlds
There is no god.
We screwed it up, next question.
Evil is just an illusion
Therefore there is no evil
If there is no evil there is no good
This there is no good there is no god.
If God exists then so does absolute truth creating good and evil therefore nullifying your argument.
We screwed it up, next question.
This is just shifting the blame. Even if we are at fault for screwing everything up (which human influence by far doesn't cover it all) a supreme being should be able to fix things without any problem.
If God exists then so does absolute truth creating good and evil therefore nullifying your argument.
It would appear absolute truth doesn't exist so it's not nullified.
This is just shifting the blame. Even if we are at fault for screwing everything up (which human influence by far doesn't cover it all) a supreme being should be able to fix things without any problem.
Correct which he plans on doing in the (near?) future during the time of tribulation at the end of the world. This argument falls back to freewill which allows us to continue to sin and therefore continue to destroy the world.
It would appear absolute truth doesn't exist so it's not nullified.
Absolute truth does exist; however absolute knowledge in the human population does not. Meaning that relativity exists but only in our minds.
Even if we are at fault for screwing everything up
screwing what up? earth sucked before we came around.
screwing what up? earth sucked before we came around.
This is coming from a Christian point of view where the entrance of sin into the world created all of todays societal, medical, economical, etc. problems.
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