Forums

ForumsWorld Events, Politics, Religion, Etc.

Theism and Atheism

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 4:37am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

See, there are two categories of sin. "Mortal" sin, if commintted and not repented, leads you to Hell. But in order for you to commit a mortal sin, you have to be aware of the deed you're about to do is sin, this deed concerns "hard matter" (direct deed against any of the commandments) and you have to do a free choice to commit that deed despite it being a sin.

Since I don't believe such a God exists, thus could not have layed such laws down and made these things sins. I couldn't possibly believe that committing such acts are sins. By the logic that for something to be a sin it must be done so knowing that it is, an atheist couldn't possibly sin.

Placing a forbidden object is not equal to placing a temptation to use it.

The forbidden object is the temptations.

You cannot command God to do something, that's why such studies are deemed to fail.

Didn't Jesus say God will do anything so long as we ask?

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 5:05am

vesperbot

vesperbot

986 posts

an atheist couldn't possibly sin.

An atheist sins by denying God, once he was informed about God existing, in fact by ANY evidence - you will be asked why you didn't reply. If one had no chance of hearing that God exists, God loves us all and He sent his Son to suffer on the cross for us, resurrected Him so that we will be able to follow Him and be saved, and is with us for all days, he has no sin of denying God - you can't deny what you haven't heard of existing. Still, his conscience is still with him, rest read above.

Didn't Jesus say God will do anything so long as we ask?

He did, however if you'd ask for a snake, the Father will likely not give you a snake. And you don't know what's best for a person so you can ask this for him, except you can always ask for salvation of a person. Health (remedy, successful operation outcome, etc) is deemed good in the eyes of humans, but is not always good in eyes of God. If you're anxious about God's vision on what's good for a man, you can relate to Jn 11:1-11:44 about why Lazarus died. Also it's written "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." Mt 4:2, with referrals to Moses' law.

PracticalManiac, please see your profile for the answer. You other people can also respond to this.

That argument is BS and I have to REPEAT myself.

I told you, this discussion ends in a stalemate. You don't see my reasoning and you don't rebuke my arguments in a logical manner, you just say BS and "I don't want". I'll do my best to not answer your unbacked statements.

And only when I straight up see God greet me to Hell I will actually believe in him.

I don't wish you an eternity of suffering, but you are asking for it here.

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 5:18am

PracticalManiac

PracticalManiac

301 posts

An atheist sins by denying God, once he was informed about God existing

This is your personal belief.. lol. And I really want to scream. We don't believe in god so we don't sin. No matter what you or your book says... lol.

I don't wish you an eternity of suffering, but you are asking for it here.

I lol'ed, if I am wrong and there is a god I don't even want to go to heaven with that conceited prick *** hole. Check this out, I'm putting it in writing. "I am selling my soul to the devil, when I die he may feel free to do with me anything he likes. ANYTHING! Be it **** or any form of punishment. Maybe he will want to just hang out and chill because god is a **** who sent him underground. Anyways he now has my soul! And **** god! **** him!" Did you just **** your pants?

I told you, this discussion ends in a stalemate. You don't see my reasoning and you don't rebuke my arguments in a logical manner

My friend you are so blinded by your faith. We have given you NOTHING but facts, and you give us bible passages and what not. Sure we have not debunked his existence but any "logical" person would not believe in such a fantasy. I know we cant prove anything but I must say atheists are definetly +1 in this whole argument and every single argument/debate from here on out in the rest of eternity.

Again let me tell you, we can deter the average mind from believing in a god by saying his bible is wrong, and we gave you evidence of this. Don't say we have not. You have given us nothing but bible passages and that is just.... for lack of a better word retarded! And I personally don't believe you had any experience with god. You say things like this like my friends claimed to have seen ghosts and had sex hen they were in 4th grade. Sure you say you had experiences but no one on this entire planet can prove that. It's like saying big foot is real.

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 5:29am

PracticalManiac

PracticalManiac

301 posts

And on a side note I do see your reasoning because I was christian once myself. Too bad it was forced upon me by my family and once I got a mind of my own I was able to leave it behind and follow truth and reason. So I do see your point and they are not logical.

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 7:14am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

An atheist sins by denying God, once he was informed about God existing, in fact by ANY evidence - you will be asked why you didn't reply. If one had no chance of hearing that God exists, God loves us all and He sent his Son to suffer on the cross for us, resurrected Him so that we will be able to follow Him and be saved, and is with us for all days, he has no sin of denying God - you can't deny what you haven't heard of existing. Still, his conscience is still with him, rest read above.

Then why tell anyone he exists at all if all it does is put numerous people in danger of going to hell? I'm asked to believe in something without any reason to believe it beyond idol threats that I will suffer. I'm asked to accept an unnecessary horrific act of cruelty as if it was a good thing. If all it takes to save everyone from hell is simply not inform anyone of such a system then The Bible does a great disservice to humanity. If such things exists there isn't a single positive aspect that could not later be gained after we die.

He did, however if you'd ask for a snake, the Father will likely not give you a snake.

But I like snakes....

And you don't know what's best for a person so you can ask this for him, except you can always ask for salvation of a person.

If God really wanted us to believe in him then such evidence would go a long way to that goal. Such evidence would go a long way to convincing many skeptics.

Health (remedy, successful operation outcome, etc) is deemed good in the eyes of humans, but is not always good in eyes of God.

Mental gymnastics.

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 7:38am

Nurvana

Nurvana

2,182 posts

I have tried, if you look 60 pages back in this topic, but I have found that God can't be either proven or disproven by binary logic, thus making any attempt of talking on this level fruitless. You can still object this.

Then GTFO. But jeez Vesper you look lonely, so I guess I'll reach back into my well of christian knowledge and try to help you out.

If God created the world, and all that is natural, then he created homosexuality.

Sin is a result of God's creation of free will. He wanted his people to have free will, so when he gave them the option to do good, he had to give a contrary decision, which was sin. But, giving the opportunity to sin in the fist place seems like a pretty **** move. (Page 83 pun intended.)

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 7:43am

vesperbot

vesperbot

986 posts

If all it takes to save everyone from hell is simply not inform anyone of such a system then The Bible does a great disservice to humanity.

The word "everyone" here is wrong. Those people who do good blindly, while only intuitively sensing what's good, will see the light and watch their good flourish in them and their neighbors. Those that do bad will refuse to accept the light of truth, but even if we won't inform them, they will enter hell after death. The light of the Gospel is here to provide a means to convert from doing bad to doing good. If a person does half good, half bad, he'll be guided to doing all good and thus being saved.

If God really wanted us to believe in him then such evidence would go a long way to that goal.

You want evidence of people that were saved due to prayers of others? Ask Gloria Polo then, she was literally saved from entering Hell (but she wasn't yet allowed to enter Heaven, but instead guided to return here), she gives evidence of God showing her how many people prayed for her, and because of them she wasn't doomed.

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 7:49am

vesperbot

vesperbot

986 posts

But, giving the opportunity to sin in the fist place seems like a pretty **** move.

Yes, it looks bad from down here. But think about it, would you like your neighbors and children to love you only when you order them to? God wants us to find out He loves us and love Him in return, and as a result of our own free will's choice. But giving someone a free choice is also giving him a chance to mistake if he'll choose wrong. Such mistakes, if they are made against love, are named sins.

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 9:06am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

The light of the Gospel is here to provide a means to convert from doing bad to doing good. If a person does half good, half bad, he'll be guided to doing all good and thus being saved.

But the whole system puts people who do good at risk and even condemns many, as there are many atheists who do good.

Condemning someone for simply not believing unfounded, contradictory and ridiculous sounding claims is not a beneficial system. There are many "bad people" who only follow it out of fear. There are many bad deeds that can be done in the name of this deity that are completely justified by this book. So even in the department of just trying to get bad people to do good it falls severely short.

Ask Gloria Polo then, she was literally saved from entering Hell (but she wasn't yet allowed to enter Heaven, but instead guided to return here)

A single persons personal experience isn't going to provide sufficient or reliable evidence.

Yes, it looks bad from down here. But think about it, would you like your neighbors and children to love you only when you order them to?

I wouldn't command them to love me at all the way God has. Issuing such commands only circumvents the free will in the first place.

I also can't help but to think I'm getting the goal post moved on me here.

 

Posted Apr 6, '11 at 9:28am

vesperbot

vesperbot

986 posts

But the whole system puts people who do good at risk and even condemns many, as there are many atheists who do good.

Well, if an atheist lives by his conscience, but denies God as commanding, I can only hope for him to see God as loving prior to him dying, since I don't know what will await him - it's up to God to decide, it's however possible that such an atheist could end up in purgatory (thus being saved). In fact atheists also differ - some claim them being agnostics, some stand for "there is no God", some even fight for this, and several other classifications. To each its own here, God views us not as groups, but as individuals, unique and complete, and when it comes to judgement, He does that regarding one's capabilities, experience, etc etc, which can't be embraced by a human mind. If you don't have a belief in God, you don't have steady ground, so when temptations come, you're likely to be dragged away. A person who does good has steady ground below him which is based on good principles of behavior, and if he'd accept God as his cornerstone, he'll have an infallible ground. It's a lot harder to move a house that's standing on rock than a house that's standing on sand. And this "system" is incomplete as viewed by the book only, it has no life without God. You can read the Bible through and through but not accept God, effectively not believing in Him though knowing much.

A single persons personal experience isn't going to provide sufficient or reliable evidence.

You can search for more hagiography, like "The story of one soul" by Therese of Child Jesus, the diary of Faustina Kowalska, the biography of Giovanni Bosco, and more. This will no longer be a single person's evidence, it will however vary in forms but not in the meaning.

I wouldn't command them to love me at all the way God has

God does not command as directly as people do. He wants us to accept His love and to love Him in return, indeed, but He never forces us into loving Him.

 
Reply to Theism and Atheism

You must be logged in to post a reply!