Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism

Simple, God's. It would be like taking the Tobbaco company's report that smoking does not cause cancer. Whatever it says will be heavily biased.

Is there any evidence to show that there were people who changed the Bible's words?

Is there any logic to living when you think there is no where to go after death?

BTW, it's important to clarify what I mean by "logic."

What does one know if they don't have any empirical evidence? Well, you can define what it means to "imply" something else by starting with basic axioms, like the Axiom of Modus Ponens and a few others (there are different systems), and from this, you can arrive at statements that necessarily follow from these axioms.

By defining more functions, such as logical equivalence, 'and' and 'or' statements, and others, you can deduce quite a lot. And all this is independent of a God. And classical logic applies to any statement that either is or isn't, and you can still use an intuitionistic system (which has well-formed-formulas, the variables that you base your system off of) for things that classical logic doesn't apply to. Intuitionistic systems don't assume things to be either true or false, and thus can be applied to anything whatsoever - they only assume things to be true if they can be proven true and false if they can be proven false (in classical logic, you can assume that something is true if it is not false, and false if it is not true, and by the definition of true and false, this is true).

People already make demands anyway. Haven't you heard of prayers?

These are not demands but requests. A request is: "I request this and this, but do what you see needed". A demand is "I request this and this, and I expect you to do, or else..." Many of the prayers are not requests indeed. Jesus said "Ask and you'll receive", but not "demand".

So in other words, he KNOWS who is going to never believe in him, is all powerful, aka able to do anything, and yet, sends those to hell, which is controlled by a fallen angel, who he also knew would do that, and chooses to let the devil stay, because a person created by a rib who had no knowledge of good and evil was told not to eat a fruit, even though god MADE the tree look super nice and the fruit look super yummy, and then condemned them and all of their decendents to eternal hellfire unless they did a bunch of ridiculous things, for something he could have prevented ENTIRELY in the first place, or just FORGIVEN them. That is NOT an all loving god. How you convulute your thinking to that this is a loving god, I have no idea.

Do control your passions. In fact God forgave Adam and Eve after they repented for not obeying Him.

Well he could at least make it look like a door.

Well, Jesus showed the way of life, and said that following this and Him will lead us to Heaven. Jn 10, full chapter.

You miss the point, the fact that a man of peace like Gandhi is hell bound while a pedo priest simply has to say three hail marys earns his way into heaven is, put simply, ****ed up.
I prefer to chill in hell with Gandhi then be with child molestor in heaven.
I mean, seriously, how the **** do you consider fair or just?

You just don't know what is repentance. There are many priests that go to Hell and lead others to Hell. I'm not saying that any priest who did that goes to Heaven. God uses personal approach when He judges us, and you never know who is in Hell, and why. We can only know if someone is in Heaven, it's when we ask some good person that's already dead for intercession before God, and God grants a miracle. Even then this event I called miracle has to be impossible to explain by current science, and investigated by both Church authorities and scientific authorities. AND, even then, the Church requires a second miracle as a viable proof of that person being in Heaven, after that that person is proclaimed saint.

Ah but you say the bible is the word of god, therefore, Romans 3:5-8 is simply God's propaganda and not an independent source.

What's an independent source, if one would assume God existing and Him granting the required wisdom of divine to people? <- No dodge please. If you E1337 will dodge this, then any further dialogue with you in this topic is fruitless.

0 - because God contradicts logic.

You claim that nothing illogical has zero probability to appear? In the material world it's true, but there's spiritual world that is insensible by anything material, where binary logic does not apply wholly (if at all, I can't say this for sure). People's souls belong there, but minds and words belong here.

Clearly the religions that survive will be those with the most compelling accounts of what "really" happened.

(once again) Do you mind totally demolishing the argument of Fatima's miracle happening along with visions of Virgin Mary predicting this to happen at the right time? If there will be no counter, then we can only assume that the entire set of Fatima's events is true, along with what the Virgin said to those children.

reasonable.jpg

Even unfaked statistics can be altered to prove the contrary. Gimme crime rate, suicide rate, national debt percent, and the whole of basis on HDI assessment of rating - these are subject to employ someone's bias.

where binary logic does not apply wholly

My point is that you assume absolutely NOTHING for a binary system. It deals solely with definitions. You define what it means to imply - and you can then apply it to anything you want.

In the 16th Century, when Martin Luther translated the bible from latin to german, he left out revelations.

Ha ha ha. Martin Luther is anathemated, and his speculations over the Bible is what caused myriads of protestant denominations to appear (along with several other factors aroused in about the same time).

Just recently God may have had a wife in the bible

"Some scholars say"??? You are the one who's throwing around scientific proofs of anything, and now you're giving an argument on anonymous? And that researcher is alone at providing this statement. Also, that Asherah she speaks of is an Akkadian goddess, and was probably indeed worshipped by Israeli at some time, though 3 Kingdoms and 4 Kingdoms state that worshipping other gods is idolatry and that's why Israeli were conquered by Babylonians and relocated there as slaves.

Not too mention the Prostant bible has 66 books

Protestants are not accounted as keepers of the Bible, since they reject a lot of Christ's words, sometimes even at random. There's no Eucharist in ANY of protestant churches, there's no confession either, the only thing that remains is the baptism, and even here people speculate about what is it for. Orthodox, however, are. And I have an orthodox Bible accessible, will verify if there are Revelations of John the Apostle.

Take the Gospel of Judas, recently found.

Sources huh?

UN pictures

I'm not requesting the result, I'm requesting the methods.

Even unfaked statistics can be altered to prove the contrary. Gimme crime rate, suicide rate, national debt percent, and the whole of basis on HDI assessment of rating - these are subject to employ someone's bias.

I don't think the purpose of the picture was to prove that atheism caused welfare, but that a society did not need religion to prosper, something the picture proved quite well. The picture did not say anything about it not being able to function with religion either. That's why proving the contrary would mean proving that a society needed religion to prosper, which obviously isn't the case.

Just saying you might've misunderstood his intentions.

UN's Methodology
UN Raw Data

Interesting. HDI is a compound of life expectancy, schooling level and GNP/person in dollars. Schooling level, however, is measured strangely, not in actual education, but by time spent in education. I also don't like measuring GNP in dollars, but since there's no other way of attempting to standartize this, let it be. And also their FAQ stated that HDI is not enough to measure development. So, a nice but unconvincing statistics over here.

Gospel of Judas Courtesy of National Geographics

I don't like this being a copyrighted info, it makes that gospel to look like an extra revelation not coming from Jesus. Also I'd like to see at least some details of where this has been found as a manuscript. It could originate from someone's mind like Mormons' "Bible". There are numerous handwritten sources of all 4 Gospels of New Testament known to science.

As for Fatima, like most &quotrophecies" they are only found to be correct after the fact or are so vague, they can be applied to anything.

Which of the two? And since they have been correct, after this 93 years, what would you say about Virgin Mary being there? And Hell, as it was depicted?

And, you haven't answered my question about "independent source". Please do.

Like if we didn't love our own mother, she would keep trying to make us love her.

Yes but our mother wouldn't torture us for eternity if we didn't love her.

Maybe he's lonely and wants to know that he is loved??

But this is a character flaw and surely an omnipotent being has the power to get rid of it.

What confuses me is how athiests do not believe in a God, correct? Yet when bad things happen in the world, there is always God right there, for you to blame. When good things happen, its just the natural order of the universe.

No when bad things happen we DON'T blame God because that is like blaming Harry Potter. What always confuses me is when chistians say god does good things when good things happen and don't blame god when bad things happen but say he moves in mysterious ways and yet none of these events require a god to make them happen.

Is there any logic to living when you think there is no where to go after death?

Yes. We live to pass on our genes and continue the survival of our species. Is there any logic to living if you believe that you go to a wonderful place after death.

Is there any evidence to show that there were people who changed the Bible's words?

Yes, the fact that it is in English for a start.

These are not demands but requests. A request is: "I request this and this, but do what you see needed". A demand is "I request this and this, and I expect you to do, or else..." Many of the prayers are not requests indeed. Jesus said "Ask and you'll receive", but not "demand".

Yes and look what a high success rate prayers have. i think it's about 0.01%. Which would happen by chance anyway. So I think we can rephrase that to ask, demand, request or just don't say anything and the chance of something happening will stay the same.

Well, Jesus showed the way of life, and said that following this and Him will lead us to Heaven. Jn 10, full chapter.

Yes but in a book which has no credibility to people who weren't brainwashed it doesn't really look like a door.

You just don't know what is repentance. There are many priests that go to Hell and lead others to Hell. I'm not saying that any priest who did that goes to Heaven. God uses personal approach when He judges us, and you never know who is in Hell, and why. We can only know if someone is in Heaven, it's when we ask some good person that's already dead for intercession before God, and God grants a miracle. Even then this event I called miracle has to be impossible to explain by current science, and investigated by both Church authorities and scientific authorities. AND, even then, the Church requires a second miracle as a viable proof of that person being in Heaven, after that that person is proclaimed saint.

Since you are skirting around the Ghandi issue I think that you believe him to be in hell. And how can there be two "miracles" to show the priests are in heaven. For a start there needs to be verifiable eye witness accounts and Christians could lie to make their religion sound more credible. And I note you haven't said all pedophile priests go to hell either.

What's an independent source, if one would assume God existing and Him granting the required wisdom of divine to people?

An independent source is one that writes what happened not what God says happened. Because God could quite easily lie to make the bible more convincing propaganda. And what "wisdom of the divine". The wisdom that slavery and genocide are good perhaps.

You claim that nothing illogical has zero probability to appear? In the material world it's true, but there's spiritual world that is insensible by anything material, where binary logic does not apply wholly (if at all, I can't say this for sure). People's souls belong there, but minds and words belong here.

So you make something up and say logic doesn't apply so it must exist? And it's not illogical it just goes against logic. There's a big difference, illogical is unlikely. Against logic is logically impossible.

(once again) Do you mind totally demolishing the argument of Fatima's miracle happening along with visions of Virgin Mary predicting this to happen at the right time? If there will be no counter, then we can only assume that the entire set of Fatima's events is true, along with what the Virgin said to those children.

It could've been made up or an optical illusion. The story of mary appearing could've been made up after the event happened. And since there is no counter to Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Scientology, Pastafarianism and the church of the flying spaghetti mopnster I think we can assume that they are all true too.

Protestants are not accounted as keepers of the Bible, since they reject a lot of Christ's words, sometimes even at random. There's no Eucharist in ANY of protestant churches, there's no confession either, the only thing that remains is the baptism, and even here people speculate about what is it for. Orthodox, however, are. And I have an orthodox Bible accessible, will verify if there are Revelations of John the Apostle.

Sources please. I don't see why these are any more likely than your branch of Christianity. And if God's word is so definite why are there so many branches. Why didn't God just unite everyone in one big branch or Christianity.

Since you are skirting around the Ghandi issue I think that you believe him to be in hell. And how can there be two "miracles" to show the priests are in heaven. For a start there needs to be verifiable eye witness accounts and Christians could lie to make their religion sound more credible. And I note you haven't said all pedophile priests go to hell either.

I can't say anything valid over Ghandi, that's why I'm not mentioning him. Two miracles thing is about one certain person, like say Damien de Veuster, or like Jonah of Manchuria (though Orthodox churches require one miracle), this issue does not apply to any group of people. The eyewitnesses were there and verified the info, in both these cases. And you have missed the part of scientific investigation that is performed in any case of a proposed miracle, this negates the lart of lying. I didn't say that all pedophile priests go to Hell, indeed, I have only said that there are "many priests" that go to Hell and lead others the same way. These are not my words, though this vision is at a "non constat" by the Church's authority (a TLDR warning) I can't say who will end up in Hell, I'm only saying that those who do evil are GOING TO end up in there IF they won't stop.

I don't see why these are any more likely than your branch of Christianity.

My branch of Christianity originates at Christ's community of students, protestants originate at different times from 1400 (Hussites) to 2000+, since various protestant churches continue to disagree and split within themselves. Also, if you'd read the Bible, Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Russian translation say "gates of Hell" instead of &quotowers of death", if read literally) Does any of protestant churches base on this?

And if God's word is so definite why are there so many branches. Why didn't God just unite everyone in one big branch or Christianity.

I wish. There are always people who seek power for themselves, sometimes lurking in the darkness, or hiding their intentions. This can lead both to stagnation and internal opposition. When the hidden conflict within the Church finally has to be resolved, schisms happen. You can also look here for details.

An independent source is one that writes what happened not what God says happened. Because God could quite easily lie to make the bible more convincing propaganda. And what "wisdom of the divine". The wisdom that slavery and genocide are good perhaps.

First, God cannot lie, or else that wasn't God who said that. "What happened but not what God says happened"? Can you elaborate? "Wisdom of divine" is knowledge about spiritual world, which is inaccessible from the material world.

It could've been made up or an optical illusion.

Is that a scientific demolition? No. You must try harder.

Yes but in a book which has no credibility to people who weren't brainwashed it doesn't really look like a door.

Brainwashed? ROFL.

My branch of Christianity originates at Christ's community of students, protestants originate at different times from 1400 (Hussites) to 2000+, since various protestant churches continue to disagree and split within themselves. Also, if you'd read the Bible, Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Russian translation say "gates of Hell" instead of &quotowers of death", if read literally) Does any of protestant churches base on this?

So basically you take a book where several parts you yourself have discredited and claim that one verse is the basis of why your faith is better than all the others. And can you please explain why God allows these branches and other religions to survive. Until you stop skirting around this issue we can't continue this discussion.

First, God cannot lie, or else that wasn't God who said that. "What happened but not what God says happened"? Can you elaborate? "Wisdom of divine" is knowledge about spiritual world, which is inaccessible from the material world

So since God told people slavery was good does that mean you support slavery? And what God says happened is what God wants people to think happened, I think that you can figure out what, what happened, means. And again you are making out that because you say so God is exempt from logic. I say the Invisible Pink Unicorn is exempt from logic and therefore must exist. Please stop skirting around this issue. Until you do we can't continue this discussion.

Brainwashed? ROFL.

How is childhood indoctrination not brainwashing?

And can you please just answer me this question. Why does your God exist and the Invisible Pink Unicorn not? What reason is there for your God to exist over Allah?

What reason is there for your God to exist over Allah?

Those two are the same God y'know - Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the 3 Abrahamic religions and all share the same God.

Those two are the same God y'know - Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the 3 Abrahamic religions and all share the same God.

Ok then Krishna, Vishnu and other Hindu Gods. And they aren't the "same" god they are just based on the same god.

Maybe he's lonely and wants to know that he is loved??

This quote reminds me of this.

Woah! What happened? No no no. God judges based on your heart, who you are as a person. I'm very certin Gandhi is happily in heaven right now. And anybody whose shamefully abused their power as a priest isn't.

There are many even on here who don't believe that.

Is there any evidence to show that there were people who changed the Bible's words?

The existence of numerous translations, the existence of dozens of omitted gospels...

A demand is "I request this and this, and I expect you to do, or else..."

If we are to have free will why does God make demands on us?

Do control your passions. In fact God forgave Adam and Eve after they repented for not obeying Him.

When does this happen?

As for Fatima, like most &quotrophecies" they are only found to be correct after the fact or are so vague, they can be applied to anything.

Who needs prophecies, scientific theories have predictive powers.

Which of the two? And since they have been correct, after this 93 years, what would you say about Virgin Mary being there? And Hell, as it was depicted?

Someone quite aware of what the Bible depicts claiming to see these things? Clearing the Bible could not have had any influence on such visions.

First, God cannot lie, or else that wasn't God who said that.

God, the deceiver.

(KJV)
1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Jeremiah 4:10
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely you have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, You shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches to the soul.
Jeremiah 20:7
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
Ezekiel 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: