ForumsWEPRTheism and Atheism

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thepyro222
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thepyro222
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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vesperbot
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vesperbot
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However I do not think anyone thinks of God as a Geneticist.
Why should God not be one? And that Re'em you're calling unicorn is closer to a hippo instead. So, unicorns exist. Therefore, God exists *trollface*
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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How this can work for disproving God.

Let's say the God you believe in is an omnipotent compassionate being. As a compassionate being he would do everything within his power to prevent suffering. Being all powerful would mean he could prevent all suffering. So being that there is suffering in the world we know that such a God couldn't exist.

pballaddict
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pballaddict
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That's what alot of people ask. If God is real, why is he letting this happen? Well, number one, through suffering, it is still our choice to accept him as our lord and savior.(im going to stop using proper typing because im in a hurry) And also it was Adam and Eve's choice. this world could have been a better place if they wouldnt have sinned. And before you make another smart comment, without them knowing it, they were an example of the human race. And that is what we do. We make mistakes. And the result of these mistakes are suffering.

vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Mage, you need to set priorities within your model of God to resolve conflicts of interests. The highest priority is God's plans which are unknown to humans, we only know that they will eventually turn out good for us all. Note that God may do what we ask from Him only if we wish something that is in the mainline of God's plans (and is good because of that), so "prevent ALL suffering" can go contrary to His plans. There's some about this in Mt 10, 28-31:
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's will.
30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

This usually means, that if we are to suffer, according to God's plans, then it's normal. In fact, we are imperfect, and to reach perfectness we have to learn what is perfect and what is not, this includes suffering of any kind. Therefore your model is wrong.

Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
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Just to throw it into the argument about why bad stuff happens -- Some people say that without suffering there wouldn't be any form of compassion available in this world, which wouldn't really make us human. So by leaving the door open for suffering, humanity can do its best to end suffering through compassionate acts, thereby correcting its own mistakes and pleasing God.

pballaddict
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pballaddict
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@ Vesperbot:Amen Brother.

loloynage2
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loloynage2
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Just to throw it into the argument about why bad stuff happens -- Some people say that without suffering there wouldn't be any form of compassion available in this world, which wouldn't really make us human. So by leaving the door open for suffering, humanity can do its best to end suffering through compassionate acts, thereby correcting its own mistakes and pleasing God.

But that doesn't work. I mean, do you need rotten apples so good apples can grow? No. You can have good without suffering. You can still be nice to someone that is not suffering.

In fact, we are imperfect

Then why didn't god make us perfect? We wouldn't need to learn if we already knew.
BigP08
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BigP08
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Okay atheists, if you guys want us to shut up and not have any faith, please give me a specific answer that will disprove us. There's no point of this argument unless there is solving point. So enlighten me.

You cannot disprove unicorns. You cannot disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You cannot disprove the Lochness Monster. You cannot disprove the gods of all other religions.
The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. For example, if I were to claim that evolution was a fact, I would have to provide some reliable sources of evidence based on studies (I'm sure Mage has given his wall of evolution links somewhere in this thread). The Bible (or whatever Holy Book you're using) doesn't work as proof because it represents the claim that your god exists, NOT the evidence. Should someone believe that Jesus rose from the dead simply because a book says he rose from the dead and we can't prove it wrong?
The demand for proof against the bible cannot be met to 100% perfection because your god can do anything, and according to most christians, the bible is not to be taken literally. Any proof against claims in the bible can be dismissed by saying, "The Bible didn't mean it literally."
Before asking athiests to disprove your claim, first provide a logical reason or some concrete evidence that may suggest that your god, or even any god, exists.
You have also conveniently (as Mage pointed out) forgotten to define your god. Because God has many varying definitions, it is impossible to disprove all those definitions. Is God the unknowable and indefinable being that exists outside of time and space? If our logic and evidence doesn't work on God, then how could such a God exist (assuming this was your definition)?

I am believe in a god as well, but demanding disproof of your god as the only means to consider atheism is a close-minded statement because the goal cannot be met. At least explore the atheist argument before rejecting it completely based on stereotypes.

And also it was Adam and Eve's choice. this world could have been a better place if they wouldnt have sinned. And before you make another smart comment, without them knowing it, they were an example of the human race. And that is what we do. We make mistakes. And the result of these mistakes are suffering.

Did God intend to make us flawed, or is God imperfect?
pballaddict
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pballaddict
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Did God intend to make us flawed, or is God imperfect?
He intended to give our own choice, and unfortunately we sinned.

Blkasp
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Blkasp
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But that doesn't work. I mean, do you need rotten apples so good apples can grow? No. You can have good without suffering. You can still be nice to someone that is not suffering.


If there was no such thing as suffering, or bad, how would we know what good is?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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That's what alot of people ask. If God is real, why is he letting this happen?


That's not what I'm saying. I was just using one example of how a God with those qualities is a contradiction, thus wouldn't exist.

Mage, you need to set priorities within your model of God to resolve conflicts of interests.


I'm not creating a model of God, I'm asking for your to define your model.

Did God intend to make us flawed, or is God imperfect?


I have a quote for that one.

"If God created us perfect, how could we have possibly sinned? If God intended to create us perfectly, but failed, how is he perfect? If God intended to create us imperfectly, how is it our fault for sinning?"-skembree
BigP08
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BigP08
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He intended to give our own choice, and unfortunately we sinned.

Is God perfect? If your answer is yes, then God giving us free will is only free will in the sense that we understand it. God knows what we will do if God is perfect, so he knows that we will make the imperfect choice, sin, and yet he waits for us to do so and then punishes us.
If your answer is no, that is a different discussion.
Blkasp
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Blkasp
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Is having free will inperfect?

Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
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will make the imperfect choice, sin, and yet he waits for us to do so and then punishes us.


He knows that we might make the imperfect choice.
pballaddict
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pballaddict
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He probably does have the power to know, but instead he waits and sees. God looks for the humble and patient, not the prideful and cocky. So he sets his example by waiting and looking instead of looking into the future.

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