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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,151 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldHF6PFUukw&feature=related


You do realize Albert Einstein never actually did that right?
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

Even if it was true this would be nothing more than an appeal to authority.
Blkasp
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Blkasp
1,308 posts
Nomad

so why can't we know about his existence?


Because people continually deny him and say: "No you don't exist I don't believe it"

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking.
~

Why do we have to choose to believe in God when he hides from us for thousands of years?


Maybe we are the ones hiding from him - in Genesis it says "Then the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" (Gen. 3:9)
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

@Blkasp:

Just because God knows what you are going to do, he didn't force that upon you, you are the person who made the decision.

But if God is perfect, then God created our minds to want to make that decision in the given environment.
@pballaddict:
By the way, you can make a direct link by clicking on link (enable links on page), put in the http address, type text (Link/Here or whatever you want) and then hit /link.

Anyway, to hit the point, you're saying that God didn't create evil because evil is the absence of good essentially (please correct me if I'm wrong)? God still created absences of good large enough that it earned the label "evil".
pballaddict
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pballaddict
128 posts
Nomad

This has nothing to do whether he did that or not. Its the point that's being made. But you didn't want to hear that part, did you?

vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Did God intend to make us flawed, or is God imperfect?
God did intend to make us imperfect. He already made angels who are perfect, and gave them one choice whether they will follow His will or not, that ended up in a split. He, I assume, didn't like that those who chose wrongly could not chose otherwise, but to make it so He had to make someone who could learn from one's errors, thus, an imperfect someone, which happened to be a human.
If God intended to create us imperfectly, how is it our fault for sinning?
Our fault is for not learning from our errors, and for disobedience. This is sin, and not the curiosity itself, as we really have to learn, and to learn how to learn in progress. So, when we are given boundaries, we are given what's good and what's bad, so it IS our fault if we choose to do bad. I have already presented such an explanation for homosexuality somewhere in here, pages 103-110 IIRC - it's not our fault if we are inclined to be homosexual, but it is our fault if we commit homosexual acts.
and yet he waits for us to do so and then punishes us.
This point is an error, God does not punish us, it's the results of our own misdeeds that punish us. Would you expect that if you won't carry the trash off your house for the lifetime, your house will not stink? And yes, God is perfect, beyond our comprehension of perfect.
Without the consequences, no, having free will is not imperfect. But the consequences are a part of free will, so with negative consequences possible to follow, free will is imperfect because it allows us to be incorrect. If we are incorrect, we are not perfect.
This seems to be false. God has free will, God is perfect, therefore "having free will" is not detrimental to retain perfectness.
If there was no such thing as suffering, or bad, how would we know what good is?
Basically, initially we were given of what's good and what's bad. Then, Adam and Eve were persuaded into wanting to know this all by themselves. They have managed to learn that they are imperfect, and that they did bad.
Isaiah 55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
This.
Blkasp
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Blkasp
1,308 posts
Nomad

But if God is perfect, then God created our minds to want to make that decision in the given environment


You seem to be forgetting that Satan is constantly influencing our minds.
pballaddict
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pballaddict
128 posts
Nomad

That's pretty much what im saying, which brings us back to the free will part. AGAIN.

loloynage2
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loloynage2
4,211 posts
Peasant

If there was no way to sin, then sinning is not really a choice, right?

So? If sinning is so bad, just destroy it.
Blkasp
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Blkasp
1,308 posts
Nomad

[quote]If there was no way to sin, then sinning is not really a choice, right?
So? If sinning is so bad, just destroy it.[/quote]

If we destroy sin, in the process we destroy free will.
And to completely get rid of sin and make sure it does not come back, Satan will have to be defeated once and for all. (Which is what is going to happen in the future)
pballaddict
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pballaddict
128 posts
Nomad

We can't. It's everywhere. There is not one person that has walked this Earth except Jesus Christ that has not sinned. Adam and Eve started it, now the only person that can stop it is God.

BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

@Blkasp:

Because people continually deny him and say: "No you don't exist I don't believe it"

People wouldn't say this if God demonstrated himself to us in the same way he demonstrated himself to people in the Bible.
But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking.

I don't oppose the possibility of there being a god (I'm not even an atheist; I'm just experimenting by arguing the opposing viewpoint). What I'm saying is that there is no evidence that supports this claim in the way that evidence can support the claim of evolution, for instance.
Maybe we are the ones hiding from him

How can we hide from God if he is omnipresent?
You seem to be forgetting that Satan is constantly influencing our minds.

But if God is perfect, he can stop Satan from influencing our minds, so the responsibility still falls on God (assuming that he is perfect).

@pballaddict:
This has nothing to do whether he did that or not. Its the point that's being made. But you didn't want to hear that part, did you?

What point are you trying to make, exactly? I said to correct me if I was wrong.

@vesperbot:
He already made angels who are perfect, and gave them one choice whether they will follow His will or not, that ended up in a split. He, I assume, didn't like that those who chose wrongly could not chose otherwise, but to make it so He had to make someone who could learn from one's errors, thus, an imperfect someone, which happened to be a human.

So you're saying that perfection means an inability to make the correct choice? And why would a perfect God who knows everything create something he doesn't like?
Our fault is for not learning from our errors, and for disobedience. This is sin, and not the curiosity itself, as we really have to learn, and to learn how to learn in progress. So, when we are given boundaries, we are given what's good and what's bad, so it IS our fault if we choose to do bad. I have already presented such an explanation for homosexuality somewhere in here, pages 103-110 IIRC - it's not our fault if we are inclined to be homosexual, but it is our fault if we commit homosexual acts.

In terms of human's understanding of free will, we do have the ability to make choices, but God creates each and every one of us individually, knowing our choices before we make them. He knows every thought we will ever have. How can he blame us for making us this way?
This point is an error, God does not punish us, it's the results of our own misdeeds that punish us. Would you expect that if you won't carry the trash off your house for the lifetime, your house will not stink? And yes, God is perfect, beyond our comprehension of perfect.

If God creates us to make imperfect decisions then he is cuasing us to make the misdeeds that punish us. If God is perfect, why wouldn't he create our minds to choose to make the morally and intelligently correct choice?
This seems to be false. God has free will, God is perfect, therefore "having free will" is not detrimental to retain perfectness.

Actually, there are some verses in the Bible that suggest otherwise. God cannot lie, for example. If God has free will, why can't he lie? If God cannot be anything but good, does he have free will?
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

@Blkasp:

If we destroy sin, in the process we destroy free will.

I would rather not have free will then accidently make the choice to burn in eternal torment forever. My personal opinion.

@bpalladdict:
We can't. It's everywhere. There is not one person that has walked this Earth except Jesus Christ that has not sinned. Adam and Eve started it, now the only person that can stop it is God.

Why doesn't he?
Blkasp
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Blkasp
1,308 posts
Nomad

If God has free will, why can't he lie?


He is perfect and he can control what he does with ease.

What I'm saying is that there is no evidence that supports this claim in the way that evidence can support the claim of evolution, for instance.


There are still alot of gaps that have yet to be fufilled (if they even can) in Evolution.

A supporter of Evolution - David Kitts, Professor of Geology admitted: "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them." As you say to us, if we cannot provide the evidence how can we prove it to be true? And how can Evolution be true if you cannot provide the full "supposed" links and evidence?

Professor Nilsson, after 40 years of researching had concluded: "It is not even possible to make a caricature of evolution out of palaeobiological facts."

If you want evidence outside of the Bible that proves the stories you can have it (here is just one example):

In the 19th century, ancient inscriptions were rediscovered in the Valley of Writing in the Sinai Peninsula. These inscriptions... independently refer to events that occured during the Exodus, including the miraculous parting of the Red Sea.

-The Skeptic's Guide to God, David Heenan
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

He is perfect and he can control what he does with ease.

The Bible verse doesn't say that God doesn't lie. It says that it is impossible for God to lie.
Hebrews 6
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

If God chooses not to lie, then that is a different story. But the passage suggests that God is incapable of lying, which means he doesn't have free will.
There are still alot of gaps that have yet to be fufilled (if they even can) in Evolution.

That may or may not be the case, but there are even more gaps in the Bible. Why does God support slavery in the Old Testament? Why does God need to sacrafice himself to himself in order to forgive us when he could simply say, "I forgive you."?
And how can Evolution be true if you cannot provide the full "supposed" links and evidence?

I can provide the links, but they are irrelevant to our discussion of whether or not God exists. But if you want them, go to MageGrayWolf's profile (I don't feel like copying and pasting all of them here as it would take up space). Enjoy.
If you want evidence outside of the Bible that proves the stories you can have it (here is just one example)

Why does this qualify as evidence? Why should we believe that the Red Sea was parted even if we have hundreds of independent documentations of it? Just because it was written doesn't mean it happened.

Let's say you were faced with a claim that a giant invisible unicorn created the universe. You are not even handed written words, but eye-witnesses that claim that the giant invisible unicorn has revealed itself to these individuals, will never reveal itself to anyone else unless they met an incredibly vague standard of faith, and it will punish you forever if you don't believe in it? They cannot show you what they have seen, but they will swear on their lives that it is true. Do you believe?
The nature of evidence is that it can't be based on who says it, but what is demonstrably real and absolutely true. Is there any evidence under this definition for the claims in the Bible?
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

So you're saying that perfection means an inability to make the correct choice? And why would a perfect God who knows everything create something he doesn't like?
You're over-generalizing. This is a wrong approach. Also, your statement is a non sequitur.
God creates each and every one of us individually, knowing our choices before we make them. He knows every thought we will ever have.
Well, what kind of free will we have then? If God knows what choices we will made, then our will is predetermined already, thus we have no free will. So, this is also wrong.
If God is perfect, why wouldn't he create our minds to choose to make the morally and intelligently correct choice?
Ask God, then. Read Isaiah's verse for details.
God cannot lie, for example. If God has free will, why can't he lie? If God cannot be anything but good, does he have free will?
Basically the same. God creates good, and determines what's good. So, yes, God is free in His will to choose what's good for us, and we are free to either accept what God provides, or to not accept.
Why does this qualify as evidence? Why should we believe that the Red Sea was parted even if we have hundreds of independent documentations of it? Just because it was written doesn't mean it happened.
"Pics or it didn't happen" fades before this. However, you are not forced to believe, but if hundreds of independent sources tell you so, not believing all of them is at least foolish. (But we can be foolish, as we have free will.) Not believing several sources is less foolish.
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