ForumsWEPRHeaven and Hell?

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44Flames
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I am catholic so I believe that there is heaven and hell. I do beleive that you have to do good in this world to be able to go to heaven but if you do evil and bad more than good in this world I do believe that you will go to hell.

Heaven it is hard to concept the thought of living for eternity in heaven and that everything would be perfect and everyone would be nice and kind.

Hell it is also very hard to think that you will be punished for many years until getting the chance to go to heaven. Also you could be in hell for eternity suffering if you do very bad things in this world.

What is you thought on heaven and hell?

Do you beleive in heaven and hell?

Do you think you will go to heaven or hell?

Is God really real?

Discuss, it can be short or long answers or views.

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thebluerabbit
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The reality is that evil deserves to be punished, and any judge that refuses to punish evil is a wicked judge.


and what is evil? what the bible sais. and thats the big answer. no explanation. you just have to do what your told. there is no choice when a guy with a gun comes and sais: "do this or die". sure you can choose to die but is there really a choice? everybody has a different opinion of what is evil and not and the bible just doesnt explain it.

so you can easily compare not being christian to killing people. do you think THAT makes sense? this god sounds like a love seeking man with a gun. a judge is supposed to decide what is evil and not just give the sentence.

but the truth is that we have all violated God's laws. That is why Jesus had to come to die on the cross as a payment for our sins. Because we are all guilty. We can all either turn to Christ and have our sins forgiven, or we can pay for our own sins.


and that sounds exactly like the "you are broken but we can fix you" statement. christianity is based on the fact that we are all evil from birth and have to fix us. i cant see why hed send jesus. if someone regrets what he did he could be easily forgiven. but god needed a guy to die for everybody? and now everybody can use that guys death as a reason to why they dont have to pay for their sins?

its an excuse of why one should believe in jesus. be one of us and we will always forgive you. even if all of this is true, i wouldnt want anyone to die just so i could get to heaven.

The truth is that God loves you so much that He sent His Son to die for you on the cross.


why does he love me more then his son? besides, we are all his children anyway. human sacrificial so people can remain calm? a god that does that is evil and people who wish to sacrifice someone for their own good arent any better either.

Jesus Christ took your punishment on Himself at the cross.


why? cant god forgive someone without killing his own son?

That is why the cross is so central to the Christian faith. It was the ultimate sacrifice and it was full payment for our sin.


lol never understood why christianities symbol is the place where who they believe in died XD

i remember my grandmother told me the story of jesus (and i didnt even know she was thinking its real. i thought she wanted to tell me a fairytale) so as a child i could pretty much see it just like any christian sees it today and i have to say that every time i just heard the words jesus, cross or seen a statue of him dieing i started to feel sick and thought: "why did she told me this story if it doesnt even have a main idea behind it?"

I'm not aware of any evidence to say there isn't a heaven or hell. I don't discount the existence of anything I can't prove. I do believe that eventually we'll be able to find out if heaven and hell exist. Just because we don't know something or can't prove something doesn't mean we'll never know or never be able to prove it.


can you prove that vampires, fairies and mermaids dont exist? your going alittle bit too far. and if those places exist i doubt we will be able to ever prove it. i mean, those are realms for souls and i doubt science will ever be able to do such a thing.
44Flames
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But it feels like for me that there has to be at least something after death. If there isn't then what happens nothing just blackness. I don't think so there has to be some meaning of us living on earth. There has to be eternal life. Were you go somewhere doesn't have to be Heaven or Hell but that is the most logical place. Were you go and live in Heaven or Hell.

What if there is something after Heaven and Hell?

What if we can learn about all the myths and secrets of this world in Heaven?

thebluerabbit
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sorry for double. ninja

Yes. If Jesus wasn't ever alive, how could a world wide religion come out of it? There are historical records when Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate. If you think this entire thing could have been made up by a folklore specialist just at the time that Christianity began, when B.C. turned into A.D., think again.


same with any other religion. how would they exist if that wasnt real? there are many religions and there is no way all of them can be true. and of course that could have been just an imaginary story. its not that hard. espacially since judaism existed before christianity. taking all the judaism elements (just god is more then enough) and adding new stories is that easy.
nichodemus
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Rememeber I am not trying to covince you to become Christain.


I know...I don't think anyone was assuming that.

Yes. If Jesus wasn't ever alive, how could a world wide religion come out of it? There are historical records when Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate. If you think this entire thing could have been made up by a folklore specialist just at the time that Christianity began, when B.C. turned into A.D., think again.


The Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist, yet it's a worldwide religion. I don't see a correlation between existing, and size of movements.

I am thinking again. And what am I supposed to think about then?

No. There are many reasons why people believe he existed, the biggest one is faith.


Faith is not a reason, nor evidence. In fact faith is defined as ''Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.''. Which means you're believing in something that people assert is true, yet don't back it up with anything.



As for Jesus, the question of the existence of Jesus as a historical figure should be distinguished from discussions about the historicity of specific episodes in the gospels, the chronology they present, or theological issues regarding his divinity. A number of historical non-Christian documents, such as Jewish and Greco-Roman sources, have been used in historical analyses of the existence of Jesus. Separate non-Christian sources used to establish the historical existence of Jesus include the works of 1st century Roman historians Josephus and Tacitus.

Jesus as a historical figure almost certainly existed. What cannot be posited is the supernatural feats attested to him in the Bible.
thebluerabbit
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But it feels like for me that there has to be at least something after death. If there isn't then what happens nothing just blackness. I don't think so there has to be some meaning of us living on earth. There has to be eternal life. Were you go somewhere doesn't have to be Heaven or Hell but that is the most logical place. Were you go and live in Heaven or Hell.


thats like saying you believe in the thing that makes you happy. ask scientists. we are nothing more then genes (im not one so these are extremely simple words). our life is based on our body and our personality is based on the order of some other genes i dont know about XP. once the body is dead so is the personality and we start to rot. said but most chances this is true.

the meaning of life? why do you need an after life to have a meaning? if we all knew about the after life then we had less meaning in my opinion. the fact that life ends is the thing that makes life so beautiful. being happy without hurting anyone is the meaning in my opinion. we all want different things but in the end we all chase the same thing: hapiness. heaven/hell sounds like an excuse to what the meaning of life should be so people will be afraid to be bad.
nichodemus
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But it feels like for me that there has to be at least something after death. If there isn't then what happens nothing just blackness.


And what's the problem with blackness such that there has to be something after death with you?

I don't think so there has to be some meaning of us living on earth. There has to be eternal life.


What I most certainly do not understand about religious folk is that they treat this phase of their life, a period where they are actually living as a transition phase to something greater. Why that anxiety with this world? This actual world?

What if there is something after Heaven and Hell?


Didn't even your Scripture supposedly say that both Heaven and Hell are eternal?

What if we can learn about all the myths and secrets of this world in Heaven?


How is this linked to the discussion about the existence of Heaven or Hell?
44Flames
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@thebluerabbit

our life is based on our body and our personality is based on the order of some other genes i dont know about XP. once the body is dead so is the personality and we start to rot. said but most chances this is true.


If you don't know about how our life is based on genes with our body and personality look it up then express it.

heaven/hell sounds like an excuse to what the meaning of life should be so people will be afraid to be bad.


I thought that we have laws in society, govenment and countries that also make us afraid to do bad things. So what you are saying is that you aren't afraid to kill someone?

@nichodemus
What cannot be posited is the supernatural feats attested to him in the Bible.


In Rome, in the year 93 AD, the Roman historian Flavius Josephus published his extensive history of the Jews. In discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, writings attributed to Josephus commonly known as The Testimonium Flavianum include this revealing account that points not only to Jesus of Nazareth having lived, but that He was crucified under Pilate, was known as the Messiah, and rose from the dead:

" About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. " - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3.63

@thebluerabbit
can you prove that vampires, fairies and mermaids dont exist? your going alittle bit too far.


No of course I can't prove that those myths are real and I don't beleive in them. But Heaven and Hell, God, and Jesus have so much things to back it up with that you can beleive in it.

but god needed a guy to die for everybody? and now everybody can use that guys death as a reason to why they dont have to pay for their sins?


Yes, God did send his own son to die for everyone. Basically, the reason Jesus had to die for our sins was so that we could be forgiven and go to be with the Lord. Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9) and only God can satisfy the Law requirements of a perfect life and perfect sacrifice that cleanses us of our sins.

All people have sinned against God. But, God is infinitely holy and righteous. He must punish the sinner, the Law- breaker. If He didn't, then His law is not Law for there is no law that is a law without a punishment. The punishment for breaking the Law is death, separation from God. Therefore, we sinners need a way to escape the righteous judgment of God. Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only one who could do what we cannot is God Himself. That is why Jesus is God in flesh. He is both divine and human. He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and He fulfilled it perfectly. Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God.

@nichodemus
It seems like you are saying the Bible is completley fake when there are many peoples real stories in there with historical evidence to back up most of it.

A number of historical non-Christian documents, such as Jewish and Greco-Roman sources, have been used in historical analyses of the existence of Jesus. Separate non-Christian sources used to establish the historical existence of Jesus include the works of 1st century Roman historians Josephus and Tacitus.
Jesus as a historical figure almost certainly existed


So then all of those non-Chiratian books are correct and true and the Bible is not?
44Flames
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Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.13

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

44Flames
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This is the source for the above.

Sorry for triple post.

phycticpotato
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I read the description of Hell on that website but it says it will be fiery in the bible:


I am pretty sure it said so on the website. Hell is a place in utter darkness. So any flames there would be unable to light up any thing. I know that Hell is full of flames.
44Flames
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I am pretty sure it said so on the website. Hell is a place in utter darkness. So any flames there would be unable to light up any thing. I know that Hell is full of flames.


Oh sorry just a little of a misunderstanding and me maybe not reading the website fully in depth.



Do you actually beleive in this thought of Heaven and Hell or beleive that nothing happens?(for everyone)
HahiHa
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No of course I can't prove that those myths are real and I don't beleive in them. But Heaven and Hell, God, and Jesus have so much things to back it up with that you can beleive in it.

In fact, even the Flying Spaghetti Monster is better backed up than god. Read the Evangelium of the FSM, you'll understand why.

If you don't know about how our life is based on genes with our body and personality look it up then express it.

What he wanted to say, what I've already said too, is that our conscience, our character and so on, isn't determined by some ethereal being in our head, but very well determined by our body, our brain. Thus, if it rots, what part exactly will go to heaven if there is one? Some kind of energy?

So then all of those non-Chiratian books are correct and true and the Bible is not?

It could be that a historical Jesus existed, but that prooves nothing in regard of his human or divine origins.

These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

The chemicals do not instruct. There is no will behind it. Everything's based on chemical interactions that evolved to be so specific that now it looks like it's a willingly build machinery; but it isn't.
I suggest you watch this video about The Origin of the Genetic Code. Please, watch all of it, watch it a second and a third time, read and inform yourself about the scientific terms used in it, until you understand the most important parts. You can only profit from that.
thebluerabbit
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If you don't know about how our life is based on genes with our body and personality look it up then express it.


i dont have to since my explanation is good enough. our life is our body and when it dies we dont exist anymore.

I thought that we have laws in society, govenment and countries that also make us afraid to do bad things. So what you are saying is that you aren't afraid to kill someone?


im not afraid to kill someone because i know i wont kill someone. and i dont need people to tell me i will go to jail so i wont kill people. people shouldnt be afraid of being bad. they should be like being good. and since one can be good without a religion and since christianity has many illogical things that it considers bad with no explanation its just an excuse to convert you and gurantee a place in heaven.

No of course I can't prove that those myths are real and I don't beleive in them. But Heaven and Hell, God, and Jesus have so much things to back it up with that you can beleive in it.


they dont. they have a book and some objects that were found and that can only prove that the past existed (which we already know). myths like that also have those things and aliens have more things to back them up then any religion

Yes, God did send his own son to die for everyone. Basically, the reason Jesus had to die for our sins was so that we could be forgiven and go to be with the Lord.


so without someone dieing god canot forgive us? human sacrifice is a horibble thing in my opinion and if a god cant do something simple as forgiving someone without killing a person then maybe he isnt all that mighty?

All people have sinned against God. But, God is infinitely holy and righteous. He must punish the sinner, the Law- breaker. If He didn't, then His law is not Law for there is no law that is a law without a punishment. The punishment for breaking the Law is death, separation from God. Therefore, we sinners need a way to escape the righteous judgment of God. Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only one who could do what we cannot is God Himself. That is why Jesus is God in flesh. He is both divine and human. He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and He fulfilled it perfectly. Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God.


that sounds really unfair. it means we are born sinners which means god created us as sinners which also means he created us to be doomed to go to hell. killing someone and using him as an escape route sounds horibble to me and that whole paragraph sounds like god is a monster that cant even forgive people without killing.

why do we have jail? we dont have it to punish. we have it to teach a lesson for the future or to protect other people. a killer will be in prison for the safety of other people. but acording to christianity any human who isnt christian will be burned in hell. god should accept peoples opinions, that is a holy trait that some people have on earth too. i see no reason why god shouldnt have it.

it sounds as if god is some kind of monster that we have to do what it wants to get mercy.
44Flames
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the Flying Spaghetti Monster is better backed up than god. Read the Evangelium of the FSM, you'll understand why.


Can you just give me a link.

Thus, if it rots, what part exactly will go to heaven if there is one? Some kind of energy?


This is the only way of telling you it is very long. I don't expect you to read it all but at ;east some of it.

Hebrews 9:26-27 gives us a blessed hope to look forward toâ¦

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvationâ

Please read that verse carefully, you will note that it states that judgment comes after death⦠there are apparently two conclusions two this verse. First, when a person dies they go straight to heaven or some other place where they are judged and then they are sent to either heaven or hell after they have been processed for shipment. The second option is that there is one judgment when all the dead will be judged together⦠if this latter idea is indeed what the Bible teaches then it would stand to reason that the dead would remain in the ground right? But we know that the Bible interprets itself so lets keep studyingâ¦

When studying the scriptures we must build scripture upon scripture, precept upon precept. This is the surest way of knowing the truth and it is what the Bible teaches us to do. If we base our belief on a doctrine solely on one verse in the Bible there is a good chance we have taken it out of context, but if we study all the verses on a subject we find the truth. So lets see if the Bible has a consistent teaching on the judgment coming after death. Lets turn to 2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or badâ

These verses are clear about one thing, sometime after death there is a judgment of mankind⦠but we still have not seen clear evidence of when this judgment will take place. If we ended our study at this point we could be quite confused, but thankfully the Bible is not illusive.

To find the answer to the question, when will the judgment take place, lets turn to 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 â" we will pick it up in verses 7-10

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I think these verses make it clear that there is a judgment at Christâs coming when the dead will be punished for their deeds and the righteous will be taken to heaven⦠but some could argue this is just for those who are alive at the time of Christâs appearing and does not include the dead. This is a valid point⦠but if we turn to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 we find that it clears that question right up as wellâ¦

13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18) Wherefore comfort one another with these wordsâ

Are we all together on verse 13, that Jesus is referring to death when He uses the word sleep? I will get into that more later in the article when we get into Lazarusâs death.

For those of you who like the basic English, the Basic English Bible translates verse 15 by saying those who are alive will not precede those who are sleeping.

Lets analyze these verses⦠those of us who are privileged to live up till the very day of Christâs appearing will not precede those who have fallen asleep prior to this time⦠what does this mean? That the dead have gone up first? Verse 16 tells us very clearly⦠it says âthe dead in Christ shall rise firstâ â" is that not clear? We will not go before those who have died, but not because they are in heaven already, because they will arise out of their graves before we are taken into the air. So many pastors and teachers quote this verse out of context and miss the truth it so clearly teaches⦠if only they would read the whole chapter they would see the whole picture.
For reiteration of this fact lets turn to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changedâ

I love the KJV and generally it is what I use but I like for this verse anyways how the Godâs Word Translation says it:

It will happen in an instant, in a split second at the sound of the last trumpet. Indeed, that trumpet will sound, and then the dead will come back to life. They will be changed so that they can live foreverâ

Note: they will be changed SO THAT they can live forever⦠the Bible tells us in Romans 6:23 that the gift of God is eternal life⦠that is immortality. We are mortal beings and when we die that is the end⦠our only hope is the resurrection of the dead at the last trump. And I might add that is hope enough⦠but until we are changed we can not live forever, not until we are given immortal bodies can we reign in heaven. And we are told in these verses that will only happen when Christ comes.

I canât find anyway to interpret these verses other then their literal sense, that the dead sleep until Christ comes, He resurrects them, changes them by giving them new immortal bodies and then takes us all to heaven. But for those of you who are still not sure, perhaps you have been taught all your life, that the dead go straight to heaven when they die. Wanting valid proof from the Bible is a good thing, so lets look at some other verses which reiterate some of these facts we are learning.

Acts 2:29

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this dayâ

Its almost as if Peter feels the need to reiterate the same thought, which can easily be reconciled by the studying the Pharisees who believed and taught that you went to heaven when you died.

Acts 2:34

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,â

John 5:28-29

âDo not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth â" those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnationâ

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgottenâ

Two things to note, first the dead know nothing, if they are either in hell or heaven they would know it right? Secondly they have no reward, Christ is clear that when they are judged they get their reward, whether they are righteous or wicked⦠so if they have not been rewarded or judged then they canât be sent to either heaven or hell can they?

There are some Christians who trying to make the Biblical description work for what they believe say that when Christ comes in that resurrection day, when the dead will be raised God brings the dead back from heaven and they return for their bodies⦠the fallacy of this statement can be clearly seen in 1st Corinthians 15:52 we quoted above, we are all going to be changed in the twinkling of an eye AT the second resurrection⦠does this mean that until Christ comes back the righteous dead who went to heaven have their old bodies? That is ridiculous⦠the fact is friends the Bible no where teaches that the dead do anything but sleep till the resurrection of Christ.

There are a few verses that Christians use to try and explain the inconsistency between what the Bible teaches and what man teaches⦠they quote verses such as Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradiseâ

The problem is how most people quote it, they put the comma in the wrong place. You see, when the Bible is teaching and reiterating a fact such as the dead know nothing, that they sleep until the resurrection, they have no reward till they are judged, and that they will be raised at the second coming, when we have all these reiterations and one lone verse appearing to discredit the rest it is usually our false perception of that verse. For instance the verse above, if we put the comma after the word âtodayâ then it clearly fits into the teaching of the other verses we provided. If we put it before today then it contradicts the rest of the Bible. In the Hebrew language there are no commas so when the translators made the translation they had the misunderstanding that the dead went to paradise after death(the righteous anyways) and so they misplaced the comma. The Bible has never contradicted itself however many it his attempts to interpret the Bible sometimes does. We need to be careful that we donât base out theology on one verse if the rest of the Bible teaches something different.

But what about the spirit of the dead? Doesnât the Bible say the spirit returns to God?
Yes it does⦠lets read hat verse now. Lets turn to Ecclesiastes 12:7

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave itâ

You need to pay close attention to this verse⦠the teaching among Christians generally is that there is a paradise and a hell where the righteous and wicked go, respectively after death. But this verse does not make any delineation between wicked or righteous, it says all who die, their spirits return to God. And in the previous verses we have looked at, we have learned that not everyone goes to heaven. So I guess to solve this we need to ask the question, what is this spirit?

The original Hebrew word for spirit in this verse is ruach pronounced pretty close to how it sounds⦠interestingly in the original Hebrew it means wind; by resemblance breath, figuratively life. In other words this spirit is actually the life of the individual, the breath of the human, when the spirit leaves them they die. I also want you to notice the verse stating âreturnâ twice, the dust which is our bodies returns to the earth and the spirit which is our life returns to God⦠none of us as of yet have been to heaven, so if this verse means the spirit goes to heaven we are returning to a place we have never been? This is in fact talking about our life that God has blessed each of us with and does not mean that we go to heaven.

If you goto James 2:26 it says âFor as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead alsoâ
This word spirit is the Greek word pneuma but means the same thing as the word Ruach and that is breath or air. It is actually where we get the word Pneumatic or Pneumonia today.

But to wrap up this whole question of what the spirit is we need to go back to the beginning. Lets read Genesis 2:7 to get a better understanding of what this verse is talking about when it talks about the spirit or breath of a human.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soulâ

Question! Before God breathing life into Adam, was Adamâs spirit floating around somewhere in some conscience or sub-conscience state? I would think most of us would say not, yet we believe somehow after death that our spirit floats around somewhere without our bodiesâ¦

This spirit which we now know is our breath which is in our nostrils COMBINED with the body⦠we all should be on the same page here. That is how we breath right? It doesnât take a great deal of knowledge to understand that when we are not breathing we are dead. And since God has only lent us the breath we use it is only logical that when we die it returns to Him, the giver. Does that make sense?

There is something in the above verse many miss even though it is staring them right in the face⦠the verse says that God formed man out of the dust of the ground AND breathed into Adamâs nostrils and THEN âman became a living soulâ â" God did not add a living soul to Adam, the Bible doesnât say âand then Adam had a living soulâ â" the Bible says that Adam BECAME a living soul. This is VERY significant because it is the unite, the body AND the breath that creates the soul. When we die the body is separated from the breath, neither one exists without the other⦠the body rots away and the breath returns to heaven from whence it came. I canât overstress the importance of this fact, we are only living conscious beings when the body is united with the living breath of God⦠separated we are in a state called death where we know nothing.

Paul say in Romans that the gift of God is eternal life? That is the same thing as immortality, we are mortal beings, when we die our thoughts cease, our breath and life returns to God cause HE is the one who gave it, it does not mean there are thousands of floating spirits without bodies in heaven waiting for the resurrection when they can return to earth, grab their old bodies and then have them changed into new⦠truthfully does that make any sense? Not to me it doesnât⦠I hope we are all on the same page on the spirit of a body now, I think that Genesis has made it quite clear that the spirit = body + breath = life. So body â" breath = death. If you want more verses supporting this just email me.

But I want to reiterate this fact one last time so there is no doubt in your mind⦠lets turn to Psalm 104:29

29) Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust


If you look at the original Hebrew the word breath in this text is the same exact word used in Ecclesiastes which was interpreted there as spirit. It is the word Ruach which again means breath⦠in the Bible they are interchangeable because the translators used both spirit and breath at different times but it was always the same Hebrew word. So the only reason there is controversy is because the original translators didnât know how to translate the word in different situations.

Let me try and use an allegory I heard another preacher use, lets assume there are nails and a board⦠we have two items. Now lets say we take a hammer and nail the nails into the boards creating a box⦠we now have 1 item. Now if we were to pull those nails out what will have happened to the box? It ceased to exist because like the living spirit it requires two things together to be⦠the box required the nails and boards together just like the living spirit requires the breath of God and the human body to become living. I am sorry if I am reiterating this so much, I guess I am afraid your like me, you have been told something all your life or have believed something and it is hard to wrap your mind around something new⦠and when we get set in our ways sometimes we have to have someone hammer something home before we say âahh I get it⦠that makes senseâ â" but if it is the truth we must accept it even if it goes against everything we believe or perhaps want to believe.

I will give you two more verses to look up for yourself for further study of this⦠Revelation 16:3 talks about the living soul dieing, this makes it clear that the living soul is the unity of breath and body which is the mortal body⦠nothing more.

Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20 states that all have the same breath⦠animals and man alike. That man has no preeminence over beast when he dies⦠that is to say if manâs âspiritâ floats around somewhere then the animals spirits must as well⦠what this verse is really saying is that once we die whether it is a man or beast we turn to dirt, our life leaves us and we cease to be a living soul until Christ returns⦠this is the only concept which is inline with the rest of the Bible and because of that we must accept itâ¦

When are the just rewarded?

Okay so we donât goto heaven/paradise or hell when we die⦠then when are we rewarded for our works? Lets turn to Luke 14:14 and see what Jesus said:

And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed AT the resurrection of the just

As far as I am concerned one verse of Jesus stating that the just are rewarded at the resurrection of the earth is enough but the Bible has many such verses reiterating this fact such as Matthew 16:27. The great thing about the Bible is that when God presents a truth He has it reiterated across the Bible so that we can see it clearly. We donât have to guess about anything.

Matthew 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works

Revelation 22:12 carries this same thought:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his works shall beâ

Paul has perhaps a more enlightening writing on this⦠lets read it in 1st Corinthians 15:53

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortalityâ

Isnât this verse the verse right before it(1 Corinthians 15:52) that we looked at earlier? We CANNOT go to heaven until we are changed from corruptible, mortal beings to incorruptible immortal beings⦠when does this happen, at death? Fortunately this is covered in the previous verse⦠you will recognize it.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changedâ

Doesnât everything fit together like a puzzle? Its interesting when Christians learn this truth, they are like âhow could I of never seen that before?â â" donât feel bad, many of us have come to that position in our lives and it doesnât matter. The Bible says God winks at ignorance, it is only when we know the truth and we donât accept it that we are in trouble.
We do not become immortal at death, we become immortal beings at the second resurrection. Every single verse we have looked at reiterates this fact⦠the reward is given at the second coming, not at death.
But when are the wicked rewarded?

2nd Peter 2:9 sheds some light on this as well:

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Ahh so the wicked are reserved or kept till the day of judgement⦠if you think about it this is only fair. We just learned that the righteous remain in their graves and are only rewarded when Christ comes⦠the dead will also remain in the grave until Christâs coming. How do we know this for sure? Do you remember John 5:29 we quoted earlier? Here it is again:

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth â" those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnationâ

Do you see it now? The good are resurrected to life, they are given immortality, the wicked however are resurrected to condemnation. Neither group however has been out of the grave since they died⦠this point should be clear in your mind by now⦠okay think about this for a minute. The day of judgement is when Christ comes right? That is shown in the above verses, would it be fair for God to punish the wicked in hell or honor the righteous in heaven before their trial? It stands to reason that they would be judged before their reward is given⦠does it not?
Do you remember the story of Lazarus the friend of Jesus? And how Mary and Martha sent and asked that Jesus would come heal him? Okay, now we probably all know Lazarus died before Christ came, which we learn at the end of the story was Christâs purpose all along. You can read the story in John 11⦠you will notice in this story Jesus refers to death as a sleep⦠we can see this term used in other parts of the new testament in reference to death such as Daniel 12:2 in reference to the resurrection. So there is no confusion on what state Lazarus was in, he was dead⦠to prove this Christ waited for 3 days to come and resurrect Lazarus, because according to the Jews up until 3 days after death there was still a chance that the person could return to life, in other words had Christ raised Lazarus from the dead prior to three days passing the people would have claimed he was never dead. But after the 3rd day they would be convinced there was no hope⦠Christ did not want anyone to say that Lazarus was not dead, He wanted all the glory for the resurrection of Lazarus.

What is significant, at least in my mind, is that in John 11:43 Christ says âLazarus come forthâ â" He didnât say âLazarus come downâ â" wouldnât it be awful if Lazarus had went to heaven, he is walking on the sea of glass and talking to Moses and just enjoying the majestic splendor of all heaven has to offer⦠and he hears this faint call from the earth âLazarus come down hereâ â" no it canât be, God canât be calling me back to that dark dismal planet called earth where sin still exists.

Yes, I know I am being a little facetious but I am attempting to make a point here. We have books today which sell millions of copies, books which tell of the authorâs claimed experiences after death. Interesting to note, most of these books see the authors going to heaven, how many write about their experience in hell?

But anyways, my point is this, we see all these authors presenting their experience yet we find no mention in the Bible of Lazarusâs experience after death. Had Lazarus went to heaven, hell or some other place would he not have told his story? The Bible is silent on this point cause Lazarus was dead the whole time, he didnât go anywhere, hence there is no reason for a story, for he had none.

This was a difficult subject to write an article on, first of all there is so much controversy on where the dead go after death. Then there is so many questions to answer and yet you want an article to be relatively short so as not to lose the attention of your reader.

It dicuses many of the questions you have been asking I think. Also God is not a monster.
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I am going so discuss some of the thoughts and questions with everyone else.

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