ForumsWEPRis abortion ok?

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toemas
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toemas
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Is abortion ok? I donât think so. The babies that these people are killing is wrong, some people say that itâs not a person that itâs a bag of cells or a fetus and not really human being I have to disagree

Please debate

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Pulse=heart=life AND pulse=sonar=submarine ergo submarine=life. Thus it is wrong to kill submarines since they are living creatures... Do you spot the fallacy in your logic.


Pretty sure that would be in context to a heart beat. So not really that great of a counter argument, unless you were trying to be funny.

As for the developing fetus being alive or not, I will agree that it is alive. Though by basic definitions of life so are sperm and eggs. What needs to be considered is person hood which I don't think has develop at such early stages of development when most abortions take place.
Skestork
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Skestork
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Pretty sure that would be in context to a heart beat. So not really that great of a counter argument, unless you were trying to be funny.

Of course it's in the context to a heart beat - which makes the entire line of reasoning redundant since heart is the second factor in whoever did it's attempt to look clever - it's just very poor use of mathematical symbols.
Your are absolutely spot on about the "trying to be funny"... Did i really fail that miserably?

You are absolutely correct that personhood is the thing to consider. That was what I was trying to point out through the absurd move of making a submarine a living thing.

I'm sure a plethora of living things are killed daily for the pleasure of religious dogmatics and so-called "pro-lifers"
Masterforger
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Masterforger
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Mhm. Religion hurts. You know, the Crusades, the Inquisition, most wars, 9/11, all because of religion.

Anyway, engaging as this thread is, isn't it a bit of a necromanced thing?

jjrocks66
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jjrocks66
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[quoteHeart=Life? What do you make of all those organisms that don't have a heart? Life starts way before, but consciousness does not. Besides, as always, you're completely ignoring the second involved being, the one that already lives: the mother. An abortion should be performed mostly for medical reasons, that means the mother is at risk.[/quote]
I was referring to human life in general. if the mother is at risk then it is up to her to decide, as with any other things... i simply said i did not think abortion was correct and stated reasons for my believing so.

Yeah. You better remember that every time you have sex with contraceptives. And everytime you don't have sex at all. Have a nice life bro.


In my opinion, cells are part of humans and are of course live beings. I don't believe them to be equal to human life. If you have sex with a condom the cells die, but no human life is lost.

You can have sex responsibly, using a condom and have that condom break. This of course is just one example. So yes one can get pregnant by accident.
I would think abortion to be one a responsible choice to having an unwanted pregnancy. Particularly if that pregnancy can be detrimental to carry to term.



I wasn't referring to the "F" word there i was referring to sex without consent... I am aware that pregnancies can come by accident being it a faulty condom or a defect in the pills.
_Spaz_
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_Spaz_
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First, If you can not support a child. Don't have a kid.

Second, Yes, you are killing something that is living. I don't care what scientific logic you use, you are killing something that is meant to become a living thing. In the case of ****? I can see where that isn't your baby. It is still wrong but I can see where it is needed I guess.

I think in any other case it is murder.

Kasic
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Kasic
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. if the mother is at risk then it is up to her to decide, as with any other things...


At risk just physically? One could argue that it would be best for someone living on the edge of their budget to get an abortion because they would not be able to support raising a child.

If you have sex with a condom the cells die, but no human life is lost.


The potential for life is lost, which is what an embryo is. We can argue when life starts, but if you're arguing for when there's potential for a fully grown human being, condoms are basically a high chance pre-emptive abortion. By using one, you destroy that chance.

you are killing something that is meant to become a living thing


Yes, and this should be taken into consideration. However there are many other factors involved.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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If you have sex with a condom the cells die, but no human life is lost.


This depends on how you define human life. Genetically speaking, yes it is.

I don't care what scientific logic you use, you are killing something that is meant to become a living thing.


I'm sure you've killed plenty of living things. By the above definition, many of them human as well. I hate to use the analogy but do you cry murder when a tumor is killed? That is also living human tissue. What is being prevented with abortion is the potential for personhood to develop.
jjrocks66
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jjrocks66
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The potential for life is lost, which is what an embryo is. We can argue when life starts, but if you're arguing for when there's potential for a fully grown human being, condoms are basically a high chance pre-emptive abortion. By using one, you destroy that chance.


What does menstruation do? Its basically the body pushing out that embryo that is no longer good. According to what you say, every time that day of the month comes around then we are loosing the potential for another life. So what might you suggest? Every female become pregnant every possible month to avoid loss of new potential life? That would lead to a lot of mouths to feed and in most cases not enough money for food.


This depends on how you define human life. Genetically speaking, yes it is.



Thats a good point, however the human being has 46 chromosomes per cell. A sperm cell, just like an ovary only has 23 it is when these two join together that, in my opinion, human life is created.
Kasic
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Kasic
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According to what you say, every time that day of the month comes around then we are loosing the potential for another life.


That potential is lost. I'm not saying that's a 'bad' thing though.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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First, If you can not support a child. Don't have a kid.

Many people still don't use contraceptives. You gonna ruin their lives for that?

Second, Yes, you are killing something that is living. I don't care what scientific logic you use, you are killing something that is meant to become a living thing.

Why scientific logic? It's medical reasons, humane common sense. Abortion is not some evil doctor killing a poor little thing, it's a responsible doctor doing his job.

Besides, what is better? Legally killing a mass of cells that might, with a bit of luck, once become a baby, or letting the mother kill the baby after birth illegaly? Or he might even attempt an illegal abortion in an improper way and get killed by that. Yes, stuff like that happens all the time when abortion is not an option. Just recently, they talked about a woman who killed her last three babies. Just because she was afraid that her husband might leave her.

In countries where abortion is in some cases legal and available, illegal abortions in general recede significantly. To me, that sounds like the way to go.
Masterforger
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Masterforger
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you are killing something that is meant to become a living thing

Meant to. I must say, have you killed insects before? And did you give not a thought? That might not be very nice of you. As far as Buddhists are concerned, your dead ancestors recycle through animals over a period of generations. You kill a spider? May have killed your grandfather.

As such, you cannot claim pro-life, then back away from not killing other things. Are you a vegetarian? Most likely not. Also, if you were in a situation, as a pregnant woman, in squalid living conditions and with a husband who's pay can get only a meal a day, would you, or would you not, abort?
Zoom2
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Zoom2
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yes, no, maybe, it's up for each person to decide. Almost no one has their views on an issue like this decided through an online chat. While it's useful to have places like this to openly discuss one's views on the issue, don't go expecting to actually change someone's mind about it.

HighSkyOverlord
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HighSkyOverlord
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Abortion is wrong! I'm sorry for those people that say "oh, well its OK if its at a certain point." No, that is absolutely wrong! It is not a OK to take a babies life just because you screwed up, and that goes for the male and female. If you are a male who got a girl pregnant and if you beg her to abort the baby, shame on you! you are supposed to tell you're girlfriend to not give up on that baby, it is a man's responsibility to take care of you're pregnant girlfriend, and to proved food and shelter, as for the female, if you abort because you're poor or because you just don't want one, you want to party. It is very simple, Have the baby and give it to someone who can maintain a baby, to someone who take care of one. shame on all of you who agree with abortion! it is blasphemous!

Masterforger
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Masterforger
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Abortion is wrong! I'm sorry for those people that say "oh, well its OK if its at a certain point." No, that is absolutely wrong! It is not a OK to take a babies life just because you screwed up, and that goes for the male and female. If you are a male who got a girl pregnant and if you beg her to abort the baby, shame on you! you are supposed to tell you're girlfriend to not give up on that baby, it is a man's responsibility to take care of you're pregnant girlfriend, and to proved food and shelter, as for the female, if you abort because you're poor or because you just don't want one, you want to party. It is very simple, Have the baby and give it to someone who can maintain a baby, to someone who take care of one. shame on all of you who agree with abortion! it is blasphemous

Is that your opinion then? Now, go get accidentally pregnant, live in a poor neighborhood and see if you can bear the thought that you will be bringing new life into the worst circumstances.
Kasic
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Kasic
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No, that is absolutely wrong! It is not a OK to take a babies life just because you screwed up, and that goes for the male and female.


So it's okay to let a bad decision/accident permanently affect one's life in a major way? The 'baby's life' is just a clump of cells entirely dependant on the mother's body. Yes, it may develop and survive until birth, but that doesn't mean that we don't consider other things too.

, it is a man's responsibility to take care of you're pregnant girlfriend, and to proved food and shelter


A little old fashioned thinking there, but yes, when in a relationship the other partner is expected to support them. This doesn't mean that you both can't decide that a baby isn't the right thing at that point in time.

if you abort because you're poor or because you just don't want one, you want to party.


Nice fallacy. Don't want a baby = want to party? Nope. Life isn't that simple.

Have the baby and give it to someone who can maintain a baby, to someone who take care of one.


The mother can make that choice for herself.

shame on all of you who agree with abortion! it is blasphemous!


Funny, I got the feeling that you weren't religious from your other posts. Why call blasphemy?
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