Forums → WEPR → Evolutionism or creationism

yah i was just makin sure that i made it clear that i was not talkin bout the universe but space itself
except for in the first sentence

i guess i should of said "like you said devoidless," in the very beginning

Wow, haven't been on this thread in awhile. I guess I should try to answer Eshploded's question differently. It's very hard to understand some of the concepts we're talking about here. First of all, try again to think about a being who exists outside of time. God never "came" from anywhere; He just is. A being existing outside time would require no beginning or end, as time does. All it would require is "to be." That's also all a personality requires. If you were this instant frozen in time, your personality would remain intact. The concept of "you" does not change whether you're inside time or outside it.

Now, to get a firmer grasp of the nature of time itself, think in terms of geometry. Time is one-dimensional, so it must be a line, a ray, or a line segment. A few more principles will decide which. First, a requirement of the law of cause and effect is that there cannot be an infinite chain of past events. The "initial event," the beginning of time, must be caused by something which is completely independent of time itself, otherwise the principle fails. Another principle we see is that time moves in one direction, forward, and cannot be reversed (as far as we know). Based on these statements, time must be viewed now as either a ray or a directionally oriented line segment, since both have beginning points and only one direction. So which is it? The assumption that God is able to see all points in time at once is dependent upon two other assumptions: that time is finite, and God is infinite. Accepting these assumptions, that means time must be a directionally oriented line segment, a finite element with a beginning point, a direction, and an ending point. Now try to imagine that tiny line segment floating in an infinite space. If God is an infinite being, you'd have to imagine that God's being and consciousness fills the whole of that space infinitely in all directions. That means He is indeed outside that line segment called time, but since all points on that line segment lie inside the space field of His consciousness, He is able to see the extent of time and all its events all at once, as if they had already happened. Bringing another dimension to this example, consider that space also has a beginning point from which all matter radiated. Evidence shows that today, all matter in the universe is moving away radially from a single point, and the universe is expanding. However, there is not an infinite amount of matter, and relating this once again to the infinite geometry example, it is as if God sees all the matter in the universe as a single point within His field of awareness. Thus, not only can He observe all times at once, but also all places at once.

Sorry if this is still confusing, but geometry is the simplest way I could think to explain something so unfathomable. After all, the human mind is also a finite thing. Concepts of the infinite are difficult.

First:
For those of you who think the universe is infinite... stop it. If the universe was infinite, it would have infinite mass and thus implode on itself. We know where the edge of the universe is, and we can also see the beginnings of the universe (up to about 3 seconds before the big bang).
The universe's beginning does not have to exist out of time... time is only a function of the universe. This is why we have terms like "space-time" because they are directly related.
Finally, god does not exist. Period. There is absolutely no need to try to make understanding the beginning of the universe more simple by brining in some magical infinite being. The beginning of the universe already makes sense, we don't need gods running around too.

Moe is right, time is just a concept that has us percieve sequences of events in a quantized amount.

Also, Bloody, a personality doesn't just spontaeneously and irrationally appear out of nowhere or "already comes with the package", it has to be shaped first by learning or genetics. Since god doesn't have DNA or cant learn "good and evil" through bits and pieces of matter, then where does his personality and principles come from?

Okay, did I not just say that the universe IS limited, NOT infinite? Or was that for someone else...eh. The personality issue again...I don't know how else I can say this. The assumption Christianity makes about this is that God's personality comes from His spirit, as does the personality of each human. Animal personalities are a bit different because they are indeed more affected by genetics. The easiest way to explain God's personality, and spirit, is that it never "appeared," as you say. It just IS. And since matter is so intimately tied to time, as Moe said, the only way an eternal being can exist is to also be immaterial in nature, hence being a spirit. I know humans can only perceive through time, but try to think outside time, without time. In addition, God never had to learn good and evil because it is He who defines good. As well, all of His personality and principles are part of His very definition. God is the very definition of good. And since God cannot do anything against His own nature, He cannot do anything evil. That is also why He is so saddened when humans sin. By definition, sin is simply anything that goes against God's nature. And, though God created humans in His image, He also gave us free will, which is why we are able to sin. At the same time, without free will, our love and obedience, should we choose to do so, would be meaningless. He didn't want a relationship with a bunch of robots. But I believe there's already a topic in the forum about free will...moving on. Okay, Moe is right about another thing. The beginning of the universe did not exist outside time because it correlated exactly with the beginning of time itself. What I'm saying is that time couldn't create itself, neither could the matter we see. It's true also that the events just after the beginning of the universe do make sense. What we don't have as of yet is an explanation for why time and matter just popped out of nowhere. It's simpler to believe that someone eternal and immaterial caused it rather than just saying it came out of nowhere one day without any cause at all. Every event must have a cause, if you think in terms of unidirectional time. Again, the only way for an initial event to occur is if its cause was independent of time.

So... the whole field of psychology, "the study of the mind" is all a load of bull****? That our behaviors and personality is not shaped, but already made? What about learning?

That's not what I'm saying. I am saying that your unique personality was decided from your beginning, and it defines who you are. Your actions do not really define "you," but they are partly based on your personality, as well as your learning and knowledge, both of which are also very important. Psychology is still very much a valid science, which, if I'm right, includes personality in its ana1yses. There's no doubt that humans behave differently when they have more knowledge and experience. A personality is just what makes me ME and you YOU and different from everyone else; unique.

There's a famous biologist named Carolus Linnaeus, lived before Darwin, and his ideas helped influence the people who directly influenced Darwin and other biologists. His basic viewpoint is "Evolution is a tool created by God in order to more fully perfect His children".

Come on, the world isn't black-and-white, it's rainbow. It's possible to have both creationism and evolution. Also, arguing a point has NEVER gotten anyone anywhere, without some way to back it up. Unfortunately, there is NO way to compare science and religion, so everyone needs to cool down. This discussion was supposed to be a "good clean discussion". Oh, and please read what the person above you wrote, it gets really annoying (sorry if this offended anyone or got off topic).

Nope, its not the personality that makes us unique, that would mean clones with exact personalities are the same, but their characteristics as collective matter in space defines their unique quality; and its the most definite thing there is.

Eh heh. I didn't get to see what you wrote, Carlie. We must have posted at around the same time. My apologies.

We've never cloned anyone, so we don't even know that they would have identical personalities. What we have seen is many sets of identical twins who develop completely different personalities. Obviously those personalities are not defined by their genetics, for they are genetically identical.

... I may have the same armatar as Carlie, but I'm not her. Sorry for any confusion.

Oh. Heh heh. Sorry paladin!

To Bloody: I meant identical copies under the exact same enviroment.

Personality is not determined by environment, at least not completely. Besides, identical environments are unachievable, though we may be able to get close.

Environment does determine the type of knowledge and experience we are able to gather, though; forgot to mention that. And though it's impossible to prove as of yet, I still believe a person's unique personality is determined from the very moment he comes into existence.