Forums → WEPR → Evolutionism or creationism

That's interesting. You're aware that he was trying to get intelligent design taught alongside evolution, not by itself, right? He's just saying we haven't been able to experimentally observe intelligent design, though. By the same token, we can't really watch evolution happen because it's supposed to be really slow. I think we're a long way yet from proving either theory, actually. I also think that trying to disprove either one of them would be even more difficult. Heck, who's to say evolution didn't take over after creation by intelligent design? We could have both. I just like to think things haven't changed much since time began.

No, he was saying that intelligent design is no more a science than astrology. There's an important distinction to be made between that kind of pseudoscience and evolutionary science.

We do watch evolution happen; we see bacteria adapting to their environment, we can see the examples of genetic drift, and we can see, through the fossil record, snapshots of the evolutionary timeline.

Well, we already somewhat discussed theistic evolution earlier in the thread, and my questions remained unanswered, so I'll point you to that if you want to walk down that path.

We can only have both if they line up successfully. They don't.

Why do you "like" to think that?

Oh, I like to think that because like I said, I see animals as well-designed machines. If a machine I designed, like a bulldozer or something, tried to alter itself over time I would be pretty upset. It might not be able to move dirt anymore. XD I like the idea of studying the fossil record, but it's weird that there's an overload of fossils in one layer and not much before or after that. And yeah, I can see bacteria and viruses changing on a daily basis, but they're very simple organisms. I kinda like looking at viruses under the microscope. You should try it sometime, it's weird. Viruses, more than any other creatures, really DO look like tiny machines, and evil ones at that! XD Some of them are covered in spikey armor, and some of them have razor-sharp limbs, and some of them even look like rockets or tiny drilling machines. And if they really mutate that fast, they change shape and rearrange their armor and stuff like little Transformers. Creepy.

By animals, you mean humans as well?


Also, if you ever get around to my other question I posted, I would be grateful.

Viruses do look funny, though! Just like a machine. I remember I was watching Jimmy Nuetron and I saw the viruses for the first time and I was a bit confused.

Exactly my point, bloody. People want evolution to be fast and obvious and exciting and such, but it's not. It's those small bacterial changes multiplied over millions of years that cause the big changes.

Well, again, you're assuming that there WAS a designer for these animals. If there wasn't, there's no problem with the whole change thing.

There are scientific explanations for those "overloads", so to speak...the Cambrian Explosion and things like that.

I agree, though, hehe, viruses are funky. Really cool to look at, though.

Yes, Eshploded, I view the human body as a finely crafted machine as well, just like animals' bodies, but I also think humans are special because they have a great mind and a spirit to go with that body. That's just a tenet that all Christians believe. It doesn't really have to do with this issue but, I think it's interesting to think about. ... Oh, you mean the question about God's personality? It wouldn't have to be "formed" so to say, if you make the assumption that He's "eternal;" all that means is He exists outside time completely, so time-based concepts don't apply. Thus, He couldn't have really had His own point of beginning like time did.

So... he had a personality of his own from nowhere? An intelligent personality that doesn't need to be shaped for any reason at all. His behaviors are unconditional and spawn from nowhere? Behavior is made a various ways, but from nowhere? Don't you see it as irrational that this time and experience based quality comes from no experience or time?

Kind of off topic...

I don't think we (humans) have the correct assumption of time. I think it is just in our nature to think that everything has a beginning and an end. But let's assume for a minute that the universe is infinite. If it were then time would be infinite. If it is infinite then there is no beginning or end. Couldn't that mean that time is not time as we perceive it, but just instances that exist independently?

Well the universe is finite in the sense that it does seem to have an outer wall, for lack of a better word. Yet in the sense that it has always been and always will be it is infinite. It constantly reforms it self. Currently, it is expanding. When it gets too large, however, it will reach its critical mass and implode in on itself, then when the conditions are right, it expands again. Granted, all of this may have no bearing on what we are talking about since it occurs over an unfathomable amount of time that our sun will be dead for millenia and us with it.

It's very important to understand 2 things:
1) god does not exist
2) evolution is not some "upward" movement. humans are not the peak, they are just part of a chain of completely random events and mutations. Does that make us intrinsically more valuable? Of course not, we only think we are worthwhile because we are self-interested. I'm sure cows and snails think they are pretty worthwhile, too.

True, humans aren't the peak, heck, we may just be a degenerative variation of bacteria.

Cows and snails might lack the traits or intelligence to consider concepts of selfworth, but we seem to do, but you are right, that doesn't make us more valuable to anything but us.

well god made the guy who thought of both so lets go with god

I belive in craetionism all the way. If you follow the path of god you may not find all the answers, or at least not like you would through science and facts but I like not knowing all the answers. Just makes things interesting.

the universe itself is not infinite but it is only logical to think that space is infinite because it is impossible to think of a place without space. think of no color no texture and just plain nothing. you cant. can you?
thereof asherlee's theory could possibly be true

...I already said the universe is indeed finite. But, you know, thanks for restating what I said I guess.