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Lanod
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Lanod
28 posts
Nomad

im an atheist and my grandfather died recently. now i am soo scared i will never see or hear him again help

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Devoidless
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Devoidless
3,675 posts
Jester

I want to make a note on the two kinds of "atheists" that I've seen argue their points.

That would be like me saying the following:

There are only two kinds of theists. The first kind is the scum of the earth and spread their religion everywhere they can. They shove it in your face and mock/look down on you if you don't follow their specific belief system. Any attempt to discuss religion with them leads to them treating you like an idiot and hiding behind bible quotes.

The second kind are the ones who are forced to belief a certain religion for fear of being disowned by their family or community. Regardless of how they really feel or might believe, they pretend until the day they die to be part of the group; thus making them a spineless worm for not living for themselves.

NOTE
Those are not my beliefs about theists. The above is simply an equally intellectually bereft breakdown of religious views.

That said, how does that sound when the spin in equally returned in the other direction?
zeus999
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zeus999
31 posts
Shepherd

The second kind was the self proclaimed "atheist". But after long questions and thought out answers, its not that they don't believe in a higher power. Its really, that they don't believe in an old man sitting on a throne out in the cosmos. Or that they don't believe in calling it god, but rather call themselves Secular just to stay away from the notation of a western/eastern deity.
My point: they have a god but by any other name.


That's not atheist I mean correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they would be classified as either agnostic(I'm agnostic) or theistic.
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

The first kind is the most disgusting human being there is. The kind that doesn't care what belief structure or any beliefs you may hold. Their entire being is to destroy and mock what you hold dear. If you don't believe exactly what they believe, then you are a moron. They are terrible people. But there aren't many of them, so that's the good news.

I have two things to say to this. One, saying there aren't many of them is an understatement. I know quite a few atheists and absolutely none of them are like this. Some atheists can become heated in discussions, as I have been guilty of on some occasions, but that's hardly an accurate picture of their whole character. Second, the most disgusting human being there is would be someone that makes fun of your religion? How about mass murderers? How about those who held slaves? How about rapists? Challenging someone to think critically about their beliefs and having a discussion is a good thing. My best friend is a Catholic and when we have religious debates we don't hold back. We're not any less of friends for it either.
You've already got some good responses to this part of your post, so I'll just leave them there for now, but it seems odd to me that
The second kind was the self proclaimed "atheist". But after long questions and thought out answers, its not that they don't believe in a higher power. Its really, that they don't believe in an old man sitting on a throne out in the cosmos. Or that they don't believe in calling it god, but rather call themselves Secular just to stay away from the notation of a western/eastern deity.
My point: they have a god but by any other name.

It's possible that you could define a God that some atheists would agree exists. If God is "the universe", then I wouldn't deny that the universe exists. The problem with this stuff is that when people say things like that they mean that this thing they call God has a personality of some sort and a will of its own, and that has not been demonstrated.
And I apologize if this offends you but have you ever met any atheists? It's really insulting when you say that "no, atheists just have a misrepresentation of god" or "atheists really do believe in god". I'm not sure if you were trying to imply that atheism is religious in a sense or if atheists know there's a god and pretend not to know. I believed in god for twenty years, bud. I rationalized his existence with arguments I didn't understand, things about infinity, objective morality, etc, but when it comes down to it, I don't believe a god exists. I don't claim to know that god doesn't exist, and I don't take a faith based position because the default is to disbelieve things until they are demonstrated. That's why we don't believe in fairies, unicorns, and the Loch Ness monster.
Maybe this will ease you some. Think of it this way. You cannot destroy something that is fundamental. The mind is fundamental. Sure, the body dies and decays. But there is nothing physical about the mind

The brain is physical, but I'm sure by mind you probably are heading in the direction of the soul. I don't have any evidence that anything other than my brain and nervous system controls me, and I don't have any evidence that any of my personality is going to be preserved after I die.
But even if you're right, I'm not sure what that proves. An afterlife doesn't necessarily mean that there's a god.
If that doesn't help, what helps me during trying times when all seems lost and meaningless. I ask myself, why its there something instead of just nothing? Its a bit comforting.

I get the impression that you think atheists are scared of the idea that there's no god. I'm not. Truth be told, the God I used to believe in, the God of the Bible, is the most monstrous and evil being I could ever imagine. I would be scared if he actually did exist. If there's really a superman out there that hides from us and forces us to guess that he exists or else, then he is immoral. If we get eternally punished for finite crimes, then that is immoral.
I'm not asking you to agree with me, but I want you to understand. I don't necessarily represent all atheists, but there are probably a fair amount of atheists on this site that agree with me.
Anyway, to answer your question, I don't know why there is something instead of nothing. I'm not going to pretend to have an answer. Believing in God without evidence is pretending to have an answer. You should look up the argument from ignorance fallacy. As a side note, look up every theistic argument you can intent on saying "therefore God" and I dare you to find one that doesn't commit a logical fallacy.
I don't know. When dealing with a true atheist its hard to comfort them. When they have nothing but the material world to hold on to.

What's really sad, to me, is dealing with believers that are so focused on working for an afterlife that somebody told you might be out there, that they forget to live the only life we know we're going to have. I know you are probably being sincere here, and so am I.
Especially now that the highest mathematics is proving that the material isn't so material after all.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. If you have links to sources about the sciences you mentioned above, specifically confirmation about this claim that you made, that'd be appreciated. I always like to evalute claims.
What do you expect us to say? If you believe in nothing then you reap nothing.

Atheists don't believe in nothing. We believe in things that have been demonstrated to be true. I think it is unwise to jump to assertions about things we don't know. If we instead try to learn, we can find out the truth and then have justification to believe.

im an atheist and my grandfather died recently. now i am soo scared i will never see or hear him again help

Unfortunately I don't know that there's anything that we can say to help you. If it helps, being an atheist means you are dealing with reality and not pretending that you know it's going to get better.
We all have to die, and dealing with death is hard. The only thing I can say to you is to live. If we wanted to weep over all the bad things that have happened, we could do it for our whole lifetime. We can also rejoice for all the good things that happen and will continue to happen in our lives.
Here's a nice response as well:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/01/dealing-with-death-as-an-atheist.html
Good luck.
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

You've already got some good responses to this part of your post, so I'll just leave them there for now, but it seems odd to me that

Sorry, I think I accidentally deleted part of that.

You've already got some good responses to this part of your post, so I'll just leave them there for now, but it seems odd to me that you have this idea of atheists hating all your beliefs. I challenge unjustified beliefs, particularly when people run up in my face and say, "Have you been saved by Jesus? You're an atheist? Then obviously you know less about the Bible that I do. You clearly don't understand." People get what they give, and no offense, but this post was rude, especially considering you're trying to convert an atheist while they're down and misrepresenting the majority of atheists by taking two simplistic views, one of which doesn't represent any atheists I've ever met or seen giving speeches, and the other which is by definition not an atheist.
Minotaur55
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Minotaur55
1,373 posts
Blacksmith

There is indeed a place where people go after they die, which is the so called afterlife. Life is a never ending force that when one form is deceased it evolves into something new and possibly recycles itself until a mass itself evolves into something else and experiencing life in a different manner.

As for being concerned about your grandfather, I'm afraid I have no good news to bear in that department. Repeating a life you lived is chaos if reincarnation existed (depending on your beliefs, personally I believe in it) and living then dieing and thats it (if thats what you believe) then there is still the afterlife but eternal spirit-ship. I don't know how meeting ones you know works in the afterlife but it may or may not happen.

To summarize this long comment, he is with you. You may not see him, but he is there. But you have the choice of choosing fact or fiction.

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Repeating a life you lived is chaos if reincarnation existed


Reincarnation would probably be the thing I'm most likely to believe if I were to believe anything, but I'm not going to get into that. I will say though that I don't mean people being reborn or living their life over again, just a perception of consciousness. Philosophical mostly...

I don't know how meeting ones you know works in the afterlife but it may or may not happen.


I always wondered about this. If everyone is in Heaven, how long does it take to find people? Wouldn't it be crowded? What do you even do, just sit there and worship God? I'd rather just be nothingness than do that for eternity.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

I always wondered about this. If everyone is in Heaven, how long does it take to find people?

You've got forever, so there's no rush.

Wouldn't it be crowded?

I think it's one of those 'infinite plane' things, so there's plenty of room for everyone.

What do you even do, just sit there and worship God? I'd rather just be nothingness than do that for eternity.

From the view of spiritual heaven, yes.
From the JW standpoint of resurrection and eternity on the earth, there would be plenty to do without a limit on your life or mind. Essentially, minecraft with god mode enabled. It'd still get boring after a few million years.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

How do you know these are the things that happen in Heaven?


If you're accepting the Bible as any kind of guide that is basically what it states.

You are saying you don't want to go to a place, even though you don't know anything that happens there.


Pretty sure he was talking about the hypothetical situation stated of just having to worship God 24/7.

You don't believe in God because he sounds fictional.


Don't believe due to lack of evidence. Also the claims are highly extraordinaire, being very improbable and again if we are to accept literal translations many claims even go against the given evidence. All of this indicates nothing but a fictional being.

God is very real and he is there to help you with your problems.


All those times you thought you weren't strong enough and felt you couldn't carry on but then God helped you out. You were just selling your self short. You had that strength in you the whole time. God was at best the equivalent of Dumbo's "magic feather". It's time we realized it was never the "feather", it was us all along.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/junk/dumbo1_zps4682b830.jpg

How would you like it if nobody believed in you? How would you like it if people thought that you didn't exist? You would feel really bad.


I would very much understand if I provided as much credibility of my existence as God does.

God is definitely real and is there to help. But you must believe in him.


That seems rather petty, to withhold help because one doesn't just buy into outlandish claims.

God is a very forgiving person and even when you don't believe in him or you follow another religion he will still love you.


That really doesn't seem like that big a deal, unless you're some sort of petty jealous entity. "for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" - Exodus 34:14

You need to believe in God and Jesus Christ because they both love you.


Someone loving me or not has nothing to do with my belief in them.

God lets you make your own decisions in what religion you choose. It's your choice if you want to go on the good side or the bad side.



Interesting to find the vague threat here.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


He had to have his human form tortured to the point of death, so much for forgiveness.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

How do you know these are the things that happen in Heaven?


I don't. Those were just three of an infinite amount of things. I chose them because, typically, heaven is depicted as a flat place where everyone goes and the mention of worshhipping God's glory is almost always included.

(By the way, accidentally type worshiping, Google Chrome wants to correct it to horsewhipping. I think it agrees with me.)

You are saying you don't want to go to a place, even though you don't know anything that happens there.


No, read my last sentence again.

"I'd rather just be nothingness than do that for eternity."

You don't believe in God because he sounds fictional. God is very real and he is there to help you with your problems.


Please post in this thread why we should believe you.

How would you like it if nobody believed in you?


I wouldn't blame them, if I never showed my face, spoke to them, covered up all trace of my existence and had millions of different versions of me people claimed existed but couldn't prove.

I'm not a people person anyways, nobody believing I'm here would be nice.

You would feel really bad


I've wished for nothing more than being alone my entire life. I would be ecstatic.

God is a very forgiving person and even when you don't believe in him or you follow another religion he will still love you.


Yes well, that's why he made hell, isn't it? Oh wait.

God lets you make your own decisions in what religion you choose.


"Move or die. I will shoot you if you do not do what I say." Sound familiar?

I think it's one of those 'infinite plane' things, so there's plenty of room for everyone.


Even if there's plenty of room, people would gather. Tens of billions of people, even with infinite room, is still a lot of wading through the crowd.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

How would you like it if nobody believed in you? How would you like it if people thought that you didn't exist?

I wouldn't care in the least. I'm nowhere near that self-centered and conceited. If I was all-powerful and that was all I wanted, I would at least put forward tangible, testable proof that my creations would understand and readily accept with their rational minds, not based on faith. Nor give only certain individuals of a single ancient nation 'feelings' of my presence/power, nor use written text in a dead/dying language to communicate. Nor would I create an advarsary just to **** my creations to eternal torment.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ah, the joys of sadomasochism.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

Tens of billions of people, even with infinite room, is still a lot of wading through the crowd.

You'd still have 'forever' after wading through it and meeting everyone and learning everything about them.
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

How do you know these are the things that happen in Heaven? You are saying you don't want to go to a place, even though you don't know anything that happens there.

There are quotes in the Bible where it says that in heaven is where everyone sings praises to God. But I'll concede that if there's a heaven I don't know what it's like.
Would you like to go to an island where you never have to worry about your career or life goals again? You will have permanent job security and won't have to worry about being fed or finding something better. (forgets to mention it's the island in Far Cry 3 and you're going to be one of the slaves)
See, I don't want to go somewhere if I don't know what it's like. If God came down and showed me heaven and it was acceptable, I might change my mind. I don't want to sing praises to God for eternity. If I have a choice it'd be nice to just kind of relax with my peeps, maybe a place that isn't too cold (I'm talking about me and my atheist comrades who will burn in Hell forever for not assuming there's a god and worshipping it).
You don't believe in God because he sounds fictional. God is very real and he is there to help you with your problems.

How about you ask us why we don't believe in God before making assumptions? I don't believe in things that haven't been proven. You don't believe in the invisible dragon in my basement. But he is very real.
I know that you believe there's a god and you believe that he is there to help us with our problems. Why should anyone else believe it?
How would you like it if nobody believed in you? How would you like it if people thought that you didn't exist? You would feel really bad.

First of all, if I'm playing hide and seek and I don't get found, I don't feel that bad. If God is so unhappy that we don't believe he exists, stop hiding! Show yourself! Then, when we have questions about life, or your holy book, instead of trying to decipher between "the Holy Spirit" and our own biases, which are indistinguishable, we can just ask God.
God is definitely real and is there to help. But you must believe in him.

Most of the atheists you're going to find on this site are very well read on religion and particularly Christianity. Many of us, including myself, are former believers. Now, what you're basically saying is that you know he is real because you believe he is real. This is the worst logic I have ever seen. "If you just believed in Santa, you would know he exists." Of course you think something exists when you believe it exists. Why should I believe God exists?
Here's a general tip. If someone thinks so completely different than your worldview that you can't even comprehend it, don't assume that they must be the mistaken one. Take the time to learn about their position first.
God is a very forgiving person and even when you don't believe in him or you follow another religion he will still love you.

So I assume that God lets you go to Hell because he loves you so much? I know you're going to cry "free will", but God hasn't made the choice clear because we don't know whether or not he exists. If he said, "Hey, I'm real, and by the way, if you believe in me, you won't get tortured forever" that would be a little easier.
Besides, loving my kids doesn't mean letting them choose to walk into a volcano and saying, "Well, it was your choice, and I love you so I let you do what you wanted." Make the choice clear, and never let those you love be tortured forever.
You need to believe in God and Jesus Christ because they both love you. God lets you make your own decisions in what religion you choose.

God is basically the abusive husband. "I love you honey, but if you don't worship me you're going to regret it." The mafia boss analogy also comes to mind...
It's your choice if you want to go on the good side or the bad side.

So on Christianity's side, we have a God that flooded the world, accepted the human sacrifice of Jeptathah's daughter, plagues Egypt, rewards belief over deeds, sanctions slavery and permits beating your slaves as long as they don't die, says if a woman is ***** and doesn't marry her rapist she should be stoned, orders his people to slaughter and **** villages, and punishes infinitely for finite crimes.
And that's the good side?
Try going to church more and have a better relationship with God.

Why do you have this presupposition that one could only be an atheist if they didn't know enough about religion? I've never heard sufficient answers for hardly any of the questions I've posed against Christianity, both morally and logically.
Trust me Lanod you will see your grandpa in Heaven.

He was not asking you to convince him that there's an afterlife. He was asking how to cope with death when you don't believe in an afterlife.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Maybe instead of being such a bloodthirsty monster, always needing a sacrifice, God could instead say "Hey, no blood sacrifice necessary, I so love the world that I forgive you! I'm going to actually guide you all on how to be better people."
Instead, "Hide and seek. Oh, you died without believing I existed? But now you believe because you know I'm here? It's too late, a**hole, burn in Hell forever!"


I know that you probably grew up thinking that God was so obvious that how could anyone not know he exists? You conclude that we must not know as much as you. Never start with that assumption about anything. Always, always ask questions so you know what our positions are and why. Don't tell us, "God is real" because that's not proof. Don't assume we don't have enough experience with religion. Christians are shoving their Bibles up our butts and around the corner; believe me, I know what's in the Bible, and I'm not just looking at the nice passages.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

But now you believe because you know I'm here? It's too late, a**hole, burn in Hell forever!

why would it be to late?
we could just aswell have a good laugh whit god about
A: how he deceived the atheists whit the univers/life/everything. and how he keeps hiding himself.
B: how the theists have thrown their free will away during life for no good reason. it's just 1 big party in heaven anyway. =P
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

You'd still have 'forever' after wading through it and meeting everyone and learning everything about them.

Ye. Just imagining you can meet everyone, hear, see and learn everything, do everything, and yet even after all the time it might take you, have only spent 0% of your time there, is loathsome.

Besides, heaven is supposed to be free of sins, and perfect, right? To me that means free of humanity, a pool of lobotomized souls roaming around for eternity. *shudder*
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Besides, heaven is supposed to be free of sins, and perfect, right? To me that means free of humanity, a pool of lobotomized souls roaming around for eternity. *shudder*


For some reason I just imagined a bunch of Boos from Mario having a party, then all swarming together into one large Boo.

Maybe it's something like that?
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