Obviously no one here understands indirection. They're saying God didn't literally "create your computer" per say, but if he did create the universe then he indirectly created your computer. Without a universe you don't have a computer.
Obviously no one here understands indirection. They're saying God didn't literally "create your computer" per say, but if he did create the universe then he indirectly created your computer. Without a universe you don't have a computer.
Let's say I created a machine that paints pictures. I build it in a way that it can run completely autonomous. This machine then paints a picture. Can I then say I made that picture or was it the machine I made?
With the comparison of God making the universe, God making us, and God making a computer with the universe we are dealing with a very different concept of the term create. With the universe it's implying that God essentially "oofed" the matter/energy into existence. With us (currently) it's implying that God had a hand in arranging that existing matter into what we are. But this isn't the case with the computer, with my thoughts or science. In the sense of arranging the matter/energy to create, it would be inaccurate to say God created everything. In the same token it would be inaccurate to say God created us in a "oof".
So the atheists want signs huh? Well think of it this way. Let's all pretend we believe in a God He has billions and billions of people to take care of everyday, all day, along, essentially, the entire universe. And you want him to come down, give a high five, and entertain you with signs until you believe (which you won't) and then zoom back up there. Sure, he loves you, but it's no skin off His back if you decide not to believe. He's got a ton of other people to worry about.
@blairlarson You're clearly faring terribly bro. You might just want to hand it off to another kid.
Heck, I'll do my best to support you. Toss 'em questions homies.
And why do these Mormon/christian threads always turn into a grinder? It's always some poorly prepared christian/mormon/whatever person who really has nothing but faith and bad grammar and multiple well-versed atheists who are more stubborn than brick wall?
I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand the goal is to debate points and blah blah. But it really just turns into a death-trap for the poor kid.
But, then again, unless you are also well-versed, I wouldn't recommend trying to do anything with religion on this forum. The opposition is well-versed. They can be complete ******** at times, but every now and a again some good points are brought up.
Can I then say I made that picture or was it the machine I made?
Both of you made it. The machine directly made it but you indirectly made it. If indirection was applied to an environment loosely, everything would be connected to everything else. Obviously God wouldn't have (or didn't, depending on your beliefs; but we're not arguing that now) made your computer directly, but if an indirect aspect were to be applied, then God would've (or did) made your computer.
With the comparison of God making the universe, God making us, and God making a computer with the universe we are dealing with a very different concept of the term create. With the universe it's implying that God essentially "oofed" the matter/energy into existence. With us (currently) it's implying that God had a hand in arranging that existing matter into what we are. But this isn't the case with the computer, with my thoughts or science. In the sense of arranging the matter/energy to create, it would be inaccurate to say God created everything. In the same token it would be inaccurate to say God created us in a "oof".
No, the definition of creation is very different on the different levels. I get that. However, if you were to look at this through a Mormon's perspective (as in, believing there's a God and he made everything, etc.), you'd see that God indirectly created your computer. As stated before, it would have been created very indirectly, but created nonetheless.
Ignoring the terms of direct and indirect because they aren't relevant here, see this (also look at this through a Mormon's perspective):
A + B = C
A is God. B is the process that made the "oof." C is your computer.
The poof and God would have both been necessary to create your computer. Without either, your computer could not have been created (redundant, but it's still necessary to say that this only happens through a Mormon's perspective). It's COMPLETELY regardless whether or not the terms are the same on different levels. It's simply as clear cut as that.
If indirection was applied to an environment loosely, everything would be connected to everything else.
How does this follow logically?
Going back to the computer analogy. Charles Babbage was the first person to make a programmable mechanical computer. There for Charles Babbage made all modern computers. Does that really sound like it makes sense? Because that's what you're saying with this indirect application.
No, the definition of creation is very different on the different levels. I get that. However, if you were to look at this through a Mormon's perspective (as in, believing there's a God and he made everything, etc.), you'd see that God indirectly created your computer. As stated before, it would have been created very indirectly, but created nonetheless.
I do have to wonder at this point how many Mormons would give God credit in such a way to all the negative things that exist in the universe.
A + B = C
A is God. B is the process that made the "oof." C is your computer.
The poof and God would have both been necessary to create your computer. Without either, your computer could not have been created (redundant, but it's still necessary to say that this only happens through a Mormon's perspective).
Actually we could cut God out of that equation all together and just have the constituent elements in place. The method by which they came into existence is of no real meaning.
So the atheists want signs huh? Well think of it this way. Let's all pretend we believe in a God He has billions and billions of people to take care of everyday, all day, along, essentially, the entire universe. And you want him to come down, give a high five, and entertain you with signs until you believe (which you won't) and then zoom back up there. Sure, he loves you, but it's no skin off His back if you decide not to believe. He's got a ton of other people to worry about.
If we are speaking of an omnipotent being (as we usually are with the Abrahamic God) doing such a thing would be effortless for him. So no it's not an unreasonable thing to ask for. In fact I can't think of anything that could really be regarded as an unreasonable request to make on part of an omnipotent being given nothing would be beyond such a beings power to effortlessly do. It wouldn't even necessarily have to be God coming down and giving a high five. Just some form of demonstrable piece of evidence would do. That's a basic requirement for anything. Oh and yes if it could be determined in such a way that God exists I would believe he exists, though that doesn't follow that I would necessarily worship him.
It's always some poorly prepared christian/mormon/whatever person who really has nothing but faith and bad grammar and multiple well-versed atheists who are more stubborn than brick wall?
That's kinda what you get when you pit something that can only believed on faith alone against those who require more to believe something. Also many atheists tend to be well versed in such matters.
But it really just turns into a death-trap for the poor kid.
Questioning and challenging someone's beliefs is a death trap?
@wyrzen- the thing is that I don't believe in god, but that's not the point. Everyone agrees god can do whatever he wants, so he can easily divide himself into multiple versions, and do just that. If he did that, I would believe he exists, but I still don't respect him for his ridiculous actions.
The "boy" didn't have to start [b]another[\\b] religious thread, but he did, and one that stirs up me more than anyone else here. You aren't worth the time to me, but this one has incurred my wrath, and so I now feel almost obligated to crush him.
Stay out of this one, you have no idea what you are getting into.
And why do these Mormon/christian threads always turn into a grinder? It's always some poorly prepared christian/mormon/whatever person who really has nothing but faith and bad grammar and multiple well-versed atheists who are more stubborn than brick wall?
Because religion has no evidence and every time we press for one to provide proof of their claims, they're unable to. The only options are dodge the question, misinterpret, or ignore/leave.
Education and intelligence are also the top predictors for if someone is religious or not. Not saying religious people are stupid and uneducated, but there are few highly educated people who are religious.
Let's all pretend we believe in a God He has billions and billions of people to take care of everyday, all day, along, essentially, the entire universe. And you want him to come down, give a high five, and entertain you with signs until you believe (which you won't) and then zoom back up there. Sure, he loves you, but it's no skin off His back if you decide not to believe. He's got a ton of other people to worry about.
All powerful God could just shout out, "Hey ya'll, I know there's a lot of you who don't believe in me, so please check around to make sure you're not near any speakers. While you're at it, plug your ears and notice that you can hear me exactly the same. Later, find someone who speaks a different language and ask them if they heard me in their language. By the way, X religion is the right one. I'll spend the next hour responding to you, then I'll be going back to other things for a bit!"
^All disbelief = gone. No one gets punished for following wrong religion.
They can be complete ******** at times, but every now and a again some good points are brought up.
If we are, it's only because we've exhausted a ridiculous amount of patience with running through the same old arguments again and again and the person keeps sticking their head up their rear end. Cut us some slack.
Let's all pretend we believe in a God He has billions and billions of people to take care of everyday, all day, along, essentially, the entire universe.
Are you seriously saying the all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent guy is overworked?
but there are few highly educated people who are religious.
@wyrzen- the thing is that I don't believe in god, but that's not the point. Everyone agrees god can do whatever he wants, so he can easily divide himself into multiple versions, and do just that. If he did that, I would believe he exists, but I still don't respect him for his ridiculous actions.
The "boy" didn't have to start [b]another[\\\\b] religious thread, but he did, and one that stirs up me more than anyone else here. You aren't worth the time to me, but this one has incurred my wrath, and so I now feel almost obligated to crush him.
....good grief. And no, I don't believe he can divide himself and be everywhere like an amoeba. His presence/influence can be felt in more than one place, but he's still a person.
Are you seriously saying the all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent guy is overworked?
Hm...I don't believe I said that anywhere in there. I believe I said he had a bunch of stuff to do.
Because religion has no evidence and every time we press for one to provide proof of their claims, they're unable to. The only options are dodge the question, misinterpret, or ignore/leave.
Education and intelligence are also the top predictors for if someone is religious or not. Not saying religious people are stupid and uneducated, but there are few highly educated people who are religious.
I agree with the bottom statement, many, many religious people are dumb and stupid, because their faith is based on ignorance. And I think religion does have evidence, it's just evidence that is attributed to other events, or is exceptionally hard to prove. I'll also give you that; Science happens to be much easier to prove than religion.
All powerful God could just shout out, "Hey ya'll, I know there's a lot of you who don't believe in me, so please check around to make sure you're not near any speakers. While you're at it, plug your ears and notice that you can hear me exactly the same. Later, find someone who speaks a different language and ask them if they heard me in their language. By the way, X religion is the right one. I'll spend the next hour responding to you, then I'll be going back to other things for a bit!"
Mormons have a different view of the whole "wrong religion HELL AND ****ATION" thing. We think that, if we pretend all religion is true, that other religions have truth, just not all of it. Like a really, really big pie, and every religion takes a small slice, but that it was fully restored and the mormon (LDS) faith has it all. And we're not like "HURHURHUR WE BETTER JESUS HALLELUJAH SPIRITS AMEN". We want to give everybody a chance to hear it, not keep it to ourselves and be *****.
Presuming, of course, that we're pretending for the moment you are a believer.
he is god. he can do everything in a blink of a eye. why would he be busy whit something? unless you mean his normal job of systematically killing african babies.
Mormons have a different view of the whole "wrong religion HELL AND ****ATION" thing. We think that, if we pretend all religion is true, that other religions have truth, just not all of it. Like a really, really big pie, and every religion takes a small slice, but that it was fully restored and the mormon (LDS) faith has it all. And we're not like "HURHURHUR WE BETTER JESUS HALLELUJAH SPIRITS AMEN". We want to give everybody a chance to hear it, not keep it to ourselves and be *****.
I noticed something a long time ago whenever I talked with my bishop: he always taught me the same lesson. I was always curious why, and I originally thought that it was because it was a very valuable lesson to learn, but now I realize that it was because the guy was a one trick pony. He was only able to start a lecture using the same story about his rough childhood. I, however have way more ways than the religious to prove a point besides saying "god doesn't exist!" I know this because I have managed to beat these arguments back each time.
The Mormon faith does believe what you have put down, but god could still easily do the job on his own and not make your boys lose 2 years of their lives just for indoctrination of not only themselves, but the people around them as well. God could easily beam knowledge into people's heads like he did with the prophets, but the best he can do is ancient book? I'm not impressed.
he is god. he can do everything in a blink of a eye. why would he be busy whit something? unless you mean his normal job of systematically killing african babies.
I thought you don't believe in God? How can a mysterious figure you don't believe in accomplish anything if he's a figment of human imagination?
And that's oddly specific.
So why can't God shout out the truth then?
A very valid point. Now, Mormons (I can't speak for other christian sects) believe that He's actually trying to shout it out, though obviously not in a super easy cloud writing way, because that would abolish the concept of faith and such. I believe he is trying incredibly hard because he loves all of you, and my faith is trying as hard as we can to spread it as far as we can, so everybody at least hears it.
The Mormon faith does believe what you have put down, but god could still easily do the job on his own and not make your boys lose 2 years of their lives just for indoctrination of not only themselves, but the people around them as well. God could easily beam knowledge into people's heads like he did with the prophets, but the best he can do is ancient book? I'm not impressed.
You used to be mormon, you know that would violate the concept of free agency because we wouldn't have a choice in the matter, it would be forced upon us. I'm also interested, however, in how you fell away.
I thought you don't believe in God? How can a mysterious figure you don't believe in accomplish anything if he's a figment of human imagination?
It's the same as if this were an "Iron Man vs Batman" thread. In those, no one is claiming they exist, but you can discuss their conceptual attributes/abilities/accomplishments.
I thought you don't believe in God? How can a mysterious figure you don't believe in accomplish anything if he's a figment of human imagination?
And that's oddly specific.
See, it's the REVERSE of this that we're reasoning.
If God existed, why CAN'T he do this? IF he existed and had the traits that believers claimed, he WOULD do something like that to prevent people from suffering. Since he hasn't, it's logical to reason that he DOESN'T exist.
because that would abolish the concept of faith and such.
Why is faith good? Blindly believing in something with little to no reason isn't good, it's foolish. If someone was selling you a house for $10 would you believe them? You should have faith in humanity and believe that he's not trying to scam you $10, right? No! You ask to see the house and the documentation for ownership.
Religion is the person asking for $10. It wants everyone to believe them and buy into what they're claiming. It refuses to show proof for itself and gets indignant when people stop believing. It acts offended when people accuse it of causing problems and being wrong, and wonders why? It's ridiculous!
I believe he is trying incredibly hard because he loves all of you,
Then God is INCREDIBLY impotent. If you seriously believe that an all powerful god who supposedly created everything in the universe can't TALK to his subjects to simply let us know he's there, please think that over and see how insane that is.
you know that would violate the concept of free agency because we wouldn't have a choice in the matter, it would be forced upon us.
Free will ALREADY doesn't exist if there's an afterlife and we get judged.
Do you have free will if someone is pointing a gun at your head and says, "You can listen to me and live, or disobey me and die?" No! That's what God is doing on a mass, eternal scale by the system the Bible says exists.
