In this thread let's discuss about the war that is going on right now against Palestine and Israel.Do you guy's think what Israel is doing is right? I don't think so,lately i have been reading about it and there is even a page on Facebook of a guy who used to live in Gaza and so everyday he post's pictures about what's happening and how bad Israel is but nobody is not helping them and he posted this recently :"Israel has broken 65 U.N resolutions with no consequences. Iraq broke two and got invaded, bombed and destroyed." This is quite unjustice and even nobody is helping Palestine,Anyway's whoever want's to read more just go like his page called Mohammed Zeyara. Now let's discuss further more.
This is an interesting article. Apparently, ignoring potential collateral is institutional in the IDF.
I remember reading this in the local paper - exact article. Small world huh? :P
Although I don't believe that ignoring civilians applies to such a wide scale to the IDF as this article subtly implies. I mean look at this:
"The news is bringing me back to when we were there and we got orders every day that at 5pm we will shoot artillery. We prepared all day for this, but in the end it didnât happen. It was surrealistic to see kids playing in Beit Hanoun."
Although it doesn't give a specific reason for why it was cancelled, I can only assume it may have been due to the large amounts of civilians in the area - although this is only my assumption. No First-World countries military would fire on an open civilian population, this includes Israel.
Sure, it is definitely not okay for civilians to be harmed, but it is my belief that Israel is forced into fighting in places where it cannot completely control this factor, even despite all of it's leaflet drops, telephone calls, text messages etc. through Hamas firing rockets in densely populated areas. As a result of this, I cannot blame Israel for what has happened, I believe they have gone above and beyond the call to protect civilian casualties - I have never heard of another army that drops leaflets over areas about to be hit by strikes.
I do not believe that Israel can simply remain idle while rockets are flung over the border indiscriminately at Civilian locations.
As a Roman author once said,
Pardon one offense, and you encourage the commission of many. Publilius Syrus
So here I, a Israeli solider, tell you that when a pilot see civilians in an area which is not a real threat for himself or for friendly forces, he wont fire. I have pilots friends. I have friends who look for these terrorists who shoot rockets from civilian homes.
What you guys forget is what war is. War is not a game. Its not a Call of duty or something. When you are under fire, you dont stop and ask the enemy what ageand sex he is, if he have kids and if he have dual citizenship. You fire back for god sake. Why Israeli soliders need to think more about how they will be pictured in the newspapers rather then to do their job?
I have to ask you, wher do you think Hamas hide? From wher do they shoot their rockets? Wher they dig their tunnles? Open fields?
I frankly do not give a monkey's whether Hamas play by the rules. They are terrorists. Israel, on the other hand, is a country that, if it wants to be accepted and supported by all the other countries, should make playing by the rules (particularly with the ones which suggest using artillery near civilians is a bad thing), of paramount importance. Dismantling Hamas rocket emplacements is fine. That's self defence. However, risking civilian lives to make things easier and safer for the IDF isn't. The IDF are soldiers. Death is an occupational hazard, and should be expected. Civilians, on the other hand, shouldn't expect to be killed in military operations.
I'm convinced that many Israelian soldiers don't want to harm civilians. But when the military explains how they are so good at avoiding civilians, and at the same time I know nearly 2000 Palestinians died, usually unnecessarily, I can only shake my head in disbelief. Of course the Hamas plays dirty by launching from inhabited areas; the problem is that the Israelian military enters the game by bombing those areas back. I am not accusing the soldiers, I am accusing their chiefs.
I say we nuke them both off the planet
Silly American, you cannot nuke every problem like in your movies.
the problem is that the Israelian military enters the game by bombing those areas back. I am not accusing the soldiers, I am accusing their chiefs.
And so I ask you, what would you do in their place? Leave the terrorists to be and let them firing rockets without any care in the world? To do so sends a message to Hamas that Israel cannot do anything in return and they are free to hurt Israel as they please. In my view, this is unacceptable.
The IDF are soldiers. Death is an occupational hazard, and should be expected. Civilians, on the other hand, shouldn't expect to be killed in military operations.
Soldiers are not 'just' soldiers who have to accept death as a "occupational hazard." They are humans just as much as civilians are, and deserve to be protected by any and all means necessary just as civilians do. Making one group higher than the other should not be emphasised because everybody is essentially human and therefore both lives are equal. Yes, civilians need to be protected, but they are also equal to the soldiers lives. Also, don't forget that many IDF soldiers are conscripted and do not necessarily want to be in such a situation which gives them such a hazard to their health.
Yes, there must be ways to avoid civilian casualties, but to completely avoid civilian deaths (by not returning fire on the rocket sites in populated areas) would mean constant barrages of rockets from Hamas as they know they will not be struck back.
For Infantry, to not use any form of Air Support or Support in general creates a huge risk factor for soldiers on the ground, who higher ranked officers are required to try and protect. You use everything you can to your advantage in war, especially when the enemy abuses everything to ensure you cannot strike back with full force.
Yes you need to minimise civilian casualties, but no matter how much effort you put in, there will always be collateral damage and from what I have seen Israel has tried to minimise this as much as possible (leaflet drops, SMS messages, phone calls etc).
Daniel makes a great point
tell you that when a pilot see civilians in an area which is not a real threat for himself or for friendly forces, he wont fire. I have pilots friends. I have friends who look for these terrorists who shoot rockets from civilian homes.
From everything I have seen the Israelis are preventing civilian casualties as much as they possibly can while rightfully ensuring the security of their nations borders and civilians by striking back at people who attempt to harm Israel.
And so I ask you, what would you do in their place? Leave the terrorists to be and let them firing rockets without any care in the world? To do so sends a message to Hamas that Israel cannot do anything in return and they are free to hurt Israel as they please. In my view, this is unacceptable.
Why do you people always have to assume we want you to sit in a corner and die just because we criticise your methods? It gets annoying, really. Do what 09philj already proposed, send troops, special forces to dismantle the firing bases with accuracy and efficiency. It's simple, really. By answering brutality with brutality, you are escalating the situation, next to doing exactly what the Hamas wants you to do.
Also it is funny how previously danielo was refusing to call it a war, and now everyone is protecting Israels actions by saying "war absolves every crime". There's something called a war crime. I totally support that Israel defends itself, that is why they have the Iron Dome and why they had to send soldiers to collapse the tunnels. But the way the soldiers acted (I've heard stories of people's homes being destroyed while Israelian soldiers looked for tunnels in vain) and the shooting of rocket is inexcusable.
Do what 09philj already proposed, send troops, special forces to dismantle the firing bases with accuracy and efficiency. It's simple, really. By answering brutality with brutality, you are escalating the situation, next to doing exactly what the Hamas wants you to do.
So what you are suggesting is to send Infantry assaults on every single rocket firing zone (correct me if I am wrong)? In a good case, this would be the perfect solution although it is logistically impossible. Over 3000 rockets have been fired at Israel just during Operation Protective Edge and organising infantry for a single attack takes hell of a long enough time, let alone 3000 attacks. Also, don't forget how deep some of the rockets are launched from in Gaza and just trying to get soldiers near them would be extremely risky.
The only way to seriously implement this method would be a proper invasion and occupation of Gaza, and then work from that to locate and destroy rocket caches, launch sites etc. (although think of the outcry for doing this...) Inserting small groups of special forces is not easy, let alone into a massive urban sprawl such as Gaza.
What do you think is an acceptable scale for Israeli action in Gaza? Would you accept a temporary occupation of Gaza for the purpose of dismantling and destroying rocket sites etc.?
Also it is funny how previously danielo was refusing to call it a war, and now everyone is protecting Israels actions by saying "war absolves every crime". There's something called a war crime.
Yes there are war crimes, and I have yet to see Israel charged for war crimes in The International Court of Justice.
(I've heard stories of people's homes being destroyed while Israelian soldiers looked for tunnels in vain)
Yes, I agree this is disgusting, these groups or individuals need to be punished for their actions although they do not reflect the majority of the IDF, just as the individual American Soldiers who urinated on dead Taliban shouldn't reflect the American Forces.
Yes there are war crimes, and I have yet to see Israel charged for war crimes in The International Court of Justice.
1. Everyone is afraid of looking like an anti semite. 2. The US generally backs Israel, and most countries want to be on the side of the US. 3. It would be difficult to pin down everyone responsible.
You talk about "war crimes" as if Israel executed peopels on the streets. Israel 'crimes' talk about fighting in urban area.
hamas know "the rules". They know what the UN think war rues are, so they use it against us. If they shoot rockets from a building, what should we do? keep waiting like we did for the last 14 years?
All this "war crime investigation" just seem as an excuse for known Israeli haters to show themselves as legit lawyers. Peopels who decline to call hamas a terror group, but are so eager to accept anything Hamas sell as legit information are not a netural judges. How come no one investigated Germany activity in Afganistan? Or Netherland in Serbia {oh wow. after 20 years they find out that "some Netherland troops did some bad thing. But thats it. No global riots, no muslims throwing molotov ****tails on drug stores}.
long story short - i dont want to sound like a butthurt or a crybaby, but how is that, that only when Israel dare to do anything, from building an hospital to expanding a city, there are global cry, but when there is a suicide bombing/rocket fire/ murdure of kids, the world say something like "both of you need to stop"?
UK say it will stop selling wepones to Israel. USA do the same. And later you ask yourself "why peoples in Israel get more and more anti-europe and anti-USA over the time?". Its like you try to force us to join Russia and China. Is that the UN goal? To make us join the "bad guys" so you will be able to attack us without feeling bad?
If it were possible, I would simply dissolve Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, along with all of their governments, and start again, with somebody neutral writing a new constitution that cannot be perceived to be biased to any party, and then giving those who disagree the opportunity to secede from the new state and found their own, on the condition that the two states take no action against each other. This is, of course never going to happen, but playing the blame game (Answer: It was everyone) is not going to fix anything, because no-one will admit their guilt until everybody else does.
