ForumsGamesGC:CS End game tactics after v1.1

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12345ieee
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12345ieee
135 posts
Farmer

Hi everyone,
I'd like to collect here some opinions of more experienced players than me on how to tackle some of the changes of v1.1, as the master source of endgame knowledge (psorek's guide) is now slightly obsolete.
Then we can link the two topics together and have an updated end game guide.

EDIT 29/12/14: scattered all over the topic there are a lot of useful info, I may recollect them all in the future.

DISCLAIMER: I'm an high level MP player, what I write here is from my perspective, may not apply so well to low level/not MP.

1) Hatred, is it worth it?

My observations would say not, but I'm still not sure, I seem to get ~20% less exp from lv 7 hatred than without it, but maybe there is a better balance in between, on the other hand it makes the round shorter, so I could actually do more if I was continually grinding exp.

Of course without MP I guess it's a blessing, because it shortens the number of waves you have to play to reach unkillable monsters and lets non-MP players achieve similar exp levels as MP players.

2) Enraging, theory and practice

Now that exp bonus from enraging is a one time factor (one g1 and thousands of g100 give the same result) it makes no sense enraging to killgem's kill power (displayed_crit*displayed_damage).

What I'm doing now is enraging with tons of g2 to make the armor grow during my mana gathering phase (I use over 500 g2 at the later waves) and killing them all with a throwaway killgem with bolt.

Then I start the exp gathering phase and just bomb them up to 999 monsters using as little bombs as possible to keep their HP low: I seem to recall throwing 9 g62 and 8 g68 per wave are two sweet spots, going for 7 bombs was too costly.

Do someone has a better tactic?

3) Goodbye sharding (and permafreezing)

Peter fixed the two bigger exploits we had to get to astronomical mana values
I found (some confirmation would be great) that if you bomb a shard and don't make it spawn you still get the 5% bonus mana, but it's waaay too low to make sharding a viable mana gathering method.
I don't think there is anything we can do about this, other than discover another exploit.

4) Farming high level talisman fragments

Luckily I had already did this time ago, but hatred has made a full traits speed run of Y6 much more difficult, to the point that U upgrading barely gets me to the end, but I cannot get the 3 endurance fragments.
I've always used a method similar to this, are there better ones?

5) Gem recipes

The only gem changed from 1.0.x to 1.1 were slowing and suppressing, both were improved, so the previous recipes for killgems and managems are still valid.
We (psorek and I) actually built better ones than the ones on the guide, but the lack of easy and understandable diagrams for them precludes their use to anyone who isn't willing/don't have time to parse unfriendly parenthetical/tree formulas.

Is there someone that could help with this?
Recipes can be found there: gemforce results

6) Uncapped skill balancing

Component skills, true colors and resonance were uncapped, great news, but finding a balance between them can be quite tricky.
I may do the math one of these days but at moment, does someone have a thumb rule that gives good results?

EDIT: as usual, thanks to AG forum for messing with all my formatting.

Yay for walls of text
12345ieee

EDIT: I forgot to mention the #gemcraft IRC channel, where a lot of top players reside stably (access from https://kiwiirc.com/client if you don't have a favourite irc program).

  • 108 Replies
kenji1134
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kenji1134
17 posts
Blacksmith

How do you guys deal with the mana gain slowdown around mana pool level 60?

Took almost an hour for my mana gem to get 2e27 mana, whereas the gem itself cost 1.3e26, using the 32-16 spec with 5 amps (couldnt fit 6 on that map).

At the same I was roughly level 6000, now ~7300.
Talisman with +15 to all skills.
120 True Colors, 132 Mana, 129 Bloodbound. Still taking ages to upgrade a gem past 2e27 mana.

UgAhgItHurts
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UgAhgItHurts
259 posts
Peasant

Slowly
http://i.imgur.com/xWdZp1l.jpg

No hatred, no manalock, everything else max haunting. If you use those, you anger differently and it'll be slower but you'll get there. It's just that the start is much slower.

Well borthelcash just did an R1 run that'll result in a pile of nerfs, but I used a lot of his approach. He has pics and all and will probably post on it.

Here I angered 550xg2 (e16hp, ~e27armor). Two mana gems and kill gems that aren't optimized or anything, trash them later (you can optimize from the start if you really want to). Slow up front, make sure mana traps do not kill creeps, freeze when you have a good pile of them. Once you hit e23 mana, then replace with spec/optimized traps/amps, amp first.

You will hit a point when your mana income slows down to what you need to spend to upgrade, that's built in. Just pick a point where you're going to bail and kill off creeps, e30 mana should get you an e48ish creep killing gem, and that's good for 200B+ xp if you get a good pile of xp sparks.

WL 11k, 600% colors and black, 500% mana and yellow. Probably best to hit some friendlier maps for about 5k levels each and you should be able to do the above.

tom0815
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tom0815
20 posts
Nomad

It seems beacons give 10 times the exp they should:
http://i.imgur.com/ILX8VRS.jpg
raw exp diff is 2300900, beacon exp conservatly estimated 1300
i doubt there are 1769 beacons in the field, 176 seem more likely

kenji1134
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kenji1134
17 posts
Blacksmith

People have been throwing around the idea of Hatred only becoming "viable" once you can hit the "theoretical" damage cap of 10e300.
It makes sense, as Hatred would then just limit the number of waves that you have tor each that damage value.

But um, has anyone gotten even remotely close to that?

Personally, at WL 7.3k, my killgem (in a tower w/ 8 amps) caps out at about e45 (max damage * crit multi), ignoring the ~20,000/sec+ firing rate, where I assume the game effectively caps your firing rate to some specific value.

Given this data, I can only imagine that getting to the damage cap would require a WL of some 20-30k, and almost a day of mana farming to get a 32s-16c or similar up to a high enough level.

UgAhgItHurts
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UgAhgItHurts
259 posts
Peasant

Some know those numbers, but understand that they're joking, it's not a matter of weeks running a map, it's some exponential value number of years. There may be a way to make hatred pay out (i.e. beacon bug abuse), but I can't see it at the paltry multiplier it gives considering the per wave hp increase will end you much soon than otherwise in the waves that provide the bulk of your xp for a run (outside wisdom sparks of course). Game caps to 30 per frame x game speed period, but assuming you have a mostly 80+ talisman, you should be able to get to at least e50 damage. And finally skills have rapidly diminishing returns, your wizard level estimate is waaay too low.

Ieee, the data you requested is at http://pastebin.com/bZDCQAzk I'm pretty good at clerical, but might have spaced on some of the e values especially for armor around wave 150. By inspection, possessed/twisted/cursed changes to the monster don't change the xp (you'll see many examples of stuff that should have higher xp in the first 300 waves, beyond that should be ok). Also by inspection I was dead wrong about armor and speed not being big contributors to xp value, so there's that Yes, this was tedious and I regret giving up a run that had a slew of sparks, but the stenography got more time-consuming than I'd planned. Really hope you can make some lemonade out of my lemons.

Suuper
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Suuper
34 posts
Nomad

Fire rate is capped at 60sps, or 2 shots per frame at x1 speed.

12345ieee
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12345ieee
135 posts
Farmer

Thank you a ton @UgAhgItHurts I'll look into it.
@anyone_else: with this data I hope to get the exp(waveNum) function, so to see if hatred is worth it.

For everyone that asked about skill balancing, I did math on it, still not definitive, but I can say:

TC >> BB > leech > crit ~ radiance

Stay tuned for more math (yay!)
12345ieee

Karmagasm
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Karmagasm
7 posts
Peasant

I did a run of M2 and got 332 billion xp, I also had a grade 95 killgem (started with a 32s-8c and ended with faffing about with a standard U hitfarmed gem).

I'm pretty much trying to copy borthel's skill setup, lol.

12345ieee
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12345ieee
135 posts
Farmer

I finally finished the math on hatred, and yes, it's completely useless at the moment, as everyone suspected.

The tipping point is a gem with kill power around e65, where you start finishing the round without hatred and it's better to add points to hatred till you can't finish it any more, but it's not really a realistic threshold at the moment.

kenji1134
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kenji1134
17 posts
Blacksmith

For mana farms, is the best method still a single gem w/ 6 amps, or is squeezing in a 2nd or 3rd (amp room permitting) mana gem beneficial? Assuming you have enough room for a 8 amps.

In effect, you would get 2x mana from the gems, but spend 2x as much on gem upgrades. Amp upgrades would be 1/3 more expensive.

Worth it, or just stick to the single managem?

12345ieee
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12345ieee
135 posts
Farmer

Mathematically speaking, upgrading a mana setup nets you around 1.5x the mana leech at 2x the cost, while duplicating the setup gives you 2x the mana leech at a cost lower than 2x, thanks to amps sharing.

So one would be tempted to cover the field in managems, but also remember that managing all that gems can be quite tedious and lags much more.

Most players I have talked to find a good balance between 2 and 4 (I myself use 1-3, depending on the map).

jdguy99
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jdguy99
58 posts
Farmer

so tried to push my patience level today. on and off through the day on hex I5, finished having beaten wave 800 and ended with 256B xp. My highest gem was a grade 71 kill gem ( using the 32 s 16 c method from way back). no idea what the gem equivalent is for that. While those are all personal bests for me it really tried my patience. Kinda boring after awhile. Now wl 9.5kk or so. might be time for a wee break though lol

kenji1134
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kenji1134
17 posts
Blacksmith

Yeah, it would be nice if there was a "special graphical setting" for endurance grinding.

Once you get past 3k mobs, everything just slows down, and you just end up waiting for mana.

At that point, I would like to replace the mobs with circles.
Just literally colored circles.
Big Red = Giant
Medium Blue = Reaver
Small Green = Swarmling

No legs, no real movement, just point particles that flood the path in the area. That kind of graphical simplification "should" allow us to maintain an actual 9x speed even with 10-20k objects on the field.

I hope...

719
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719
39 posts
Herald

Received 683 billion experience with E6, WL 17105 .
The main thing that I realized - do not use hatred, too rapidly increasing health and initially increased.
Without hatred, experience x69,7 only 30% lower in the endless mode without hatred increase HP for a wave about 16%, and with hatred almost 24%, that is, 1.5 times more.

To win, a scheme used by crafting Psorek.
Just think it's important distribution skills, most at True Color (276), Bloddbound (255), Mana leech (249). More on some chat Critical hit (88) and resonanse (88), and all the other skills except for the group of 45 Component.
If we increase Crit and Resonanse to the detriment of the rest of the damage is not growing significantly, as well as points from reducing Crit and resonanse are missing out on a significant increase in major skills.

Element of luck in getting experience about 30-40% (loss factors of experience), after the field E6 went into the field and T8 gathering gem 8 times more powerful received only 480 billion experience.

Suuper
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Suuper
34 posts
Nomad

@kenji1134: While lower graphical settings would improve frame rate, the calculations for thousands of monsters, and gems hitting thousands of monsters, is also a big factor in lag. You wouldn't cut out all lag with lower graphical settings. (Change between 3x and 9x speed. If you see a significant difference in frame rate, there is lag from non-graphics calculations.)

Speaking of graphical lag, though, it would be nice if the game wouldn't re-drawevery monster each frame while paused. Lag while paused is annoying.

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