ForumsWEPR[necro] Satan-Angel or Dijinn?

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mbbs112
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mbbs112
198 posts
Peasant

Hi all
I was recently searching some stuff when i started wondering if Satan or Lucifer as called in the christian bible is an angel or a dijinn.
A dijinn is a creature that was created by God in Islam and it said that he was a Dijinn and that is why he disobeyed God while christian claim that he was an angel and 1 out of 4 Archangels of God.Whether or not you believe in God or not,what do you think Satan is?
Remember to put evidence or a source backing up your information*

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HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

With all due respect, but I think this question is stupid. Angel or djinn - the only difference I think there is, is that djinns are thought to be more ambivalent while angels are generally good; otherwise they're just different names for the same thing. Asking which is right is akin to ask whether Christianity or Islam is right. And the answer to this question depends on your faith.
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Still, in Christianity, Lucifer was an angel, but when he fell he and the angels that followed him became demons, so technically speaking Satan is not an angel anymore.

Moegreche
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Moegreche
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Duke

The Islamic interpretation is at least coherent, though. In the Christian tradition, Satan is a serpent. I think there is reference to Satan being cast out of heaven in Revelations, but I'm not sure that there is explicit reference to his being an angel.
Maybe what's going on is people conflating the Bible with John Milton's Paradise Lost. I don't know, though, maybe there is evidence in the bible for Satan being an angel.

But the main problem with the Christian tradition, as I understand it, is that angels lack free will whereas Djinn's don't. So the very thought of an angel doing something to get himself cast out of heaven is a bit silly. Maybe the whole free will/angel thing is me conflating other parts of mythology/mysticism with Christian teaching. But at least, in the Islamic tradition, the thought of a Djinn being able to do what it wants is a coherent notion.

So, yeah, I'm going with Islam on this one.

Ishtaron
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Ishtaron
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Blacksmith

Neither. Satan is not djinn because stories of the djinn pre-date Islamic beliefs in the Middle East. Like Christmas, this is clearly a matter of a new religion integrating aspects of the old to help encourage and ease conversion. However, that does not necessarily make him an angel either. The word "satan" is actually used repeatedly in the Torah because it's just a word that means adversary. Most of the time it's used to describe people. There are a few occasions in which it's preceded by "ha" which means "the" and thus becomes a title but none of those instances actually describe the satan as an angel. In fact, his role in the old testament is basically limited to deceiving, seducing, and/or accusing people to get them into trouble. He's never shown as anything more than a spirit that tempts people to sin.

It's only in the second book of Enoch, an apocryphal text, where Satan is claimed to be a member of the Grigori (watcher angels) who rebelled against God and fell. Then, in Revelations the dragon is referred to as the devil, the satan, and the serpent from eden*. Then the dragon wages war on heaven but is defeated and cast out, down to earth. This led biblical scholars, mostly around the time of the early Holy Roman Empire, to come up with a narrative for Satan. They added in the term lucifer (falling star) from Isaiah and created a story in which Satan was the brightest and most powerful angel who led a rebellion against God but naturally, being less powerful than an omnipotent being, fell.

*Given his role as a tempter in the rest of the Old Testament this isn't an unrealistic association and the two may even be the same but nothing in Genesis ever identifies the serpent as ha-satan.

Side note, in Eastern Orthodox traditions and the Jewish Kabbalah there are 7 archangels, none of whom are Satan. I don't know why western cultures only recognize 3 or 4 but Satan still isn't considered among their ranks except in works of fiction.

231terminator
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231terminator
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Nomad

o gee wiz its the what is gods name thread all over again. satan is an angel who tried to overthrow god and failed, and to that post from earlier, satan isnt a serpent he merely took the form of one.

mbbs112
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mbbs112
198 posts
Peasant

There are many differences between the two,Dijinns are made of fire and are like humans while on the other hand Angels are made of light and never disobey an order so i think it is most likely not a stupid question.If Satan was an angel then he shouldnt have been able to disobey so it makes a little sense because Dijinns are freewilled.Although there are some Islamic Scholars who think he was an an angel,i'll try to post some links.

WHDH
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WHDH
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Shepherd

Bad question! It is not important is he angel or dijin. His pshizical look isn't important, the Christian or Islamic concept of the devil is not based on looks from out. He is same inside- EVIL

mbbs112
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mbbs112
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Peasant

@WHDH it's not a bad question!

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

@Moegreche Coherent or not, the question posed by the OP still seems redundant to me. A djinn is not a concept of Christianity, hence even when admitting that Satan is no angel, he cannot be a djinn either, at least in the Christian mythology. You made a sensible point about the Islamic concept being more coherent, but asking whether Satan is an angel or a djinn makes no sense because the two have never been equal alternatives within a single mythology.

mbbs112
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mbbs112
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Peasant

@HahiHa what do you believe he is even if you don't believe in him,what do you think is he ?

Moegreche
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Moegreche
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Duke

@HahiHa - Hehe, I was kind of hoping no one would notice that So here's my attempt at trying to worm my way out.

I initially read the OP's first sentence: ..."wondering if Satan or Lucifer as called in the christian bible is an angel or a dijinn." the same as you. And that's probably the correct reading. But in an effort to make the question a more intersting one, what if we give it a bit more charitable reading? Let's suppose that the OP phrased it a little strange and that brackets might help. So the new sentence would read:
... wondering if Satan (or Lucifer as called in the christian bible) is an angel or a dijinn.

In other words, is the big bag guy who was cast out of hell - in both Christian and Islamic faiths - an angel or a djinn?

For me, it's simply yet another sticker of inconsistency/incohrence to place on the Christian faith. And that's always fun to talk about!

mbbs112
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mbbs112
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Peasant

@MoeGreche well that would seem fine and what if we just classify the Dijinns as demons since they are in Christian mythology too but Dijinns aren't classified as demons in Islam but rather just made of fire meaning there are good ones and bad ones.@HahiHa would you classify the Dijinns as demons to be able to make the debate more sensible?

Moegreche
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Moegreche
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Duke

Well, we can't make that move because in the Christian tradition, Satan was in heaven. This just isn't a place where demons reside, unless the nature of Satan changed.

But even if that were the case, the notion of a demon is a complex one. I'm not sure that Satan can be classified as a demon. In the New Testament, I think, Satan is considered to be ruler of the demons. Of course, that doesn't immediately exclude him from being a demon himself. But given the entire picture (and recalling the question posed by the OP), I don't think this move is prudent.

On that note, I also don't think it would be prudent to consider Djinns to be demons, either. Demons are, by their very nature, malevolent. So they just aren't the sorts of entities that would belong in heaven - in either the Christian or Islamic tradition.

This is, of course, a much deeper theological question that the one you're after. For example, I'm not sure if, in the Christian tradition, evil existed before Satan was cast out of Heaven. I'm not sure if demons are entities that are actually recognised by the Church. And I'm not sure whether they are independent entities or merely extensions of their overlord (viz. Satan). But these questions, whether interesting or not, are far beyond the scope of this thread.

Speaking of which - is there something you're after? I mean, suppose Satan is a Djinn. What else should I believe based on that (same goes if Satan is an angel)? Is this an investigation that is purely scriptural? If so, then HahiHa's original objection is the stronger.

mbbs112
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mbbs112
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Peasant

@Moegreche just thinking about other people's point of view about him.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

HahiHa would you classify the Dijinns as demons to be able to make the debate more sensible?

No, for the same reasons Moe stated: demons are seen as inherently bad, while djinns appear to be ambivalent - some are good, some are bad. But just out of curiosity, is Satan seen as just one among other djinns in the Islamic faith, or is he special in some way?

Well, we can't make that move because in the Christian tradition, Satan was in heaven. This just isn't a place where demons reside, unless the nature of Satan changed.

The latter would be true in the popular story of Lucifer and his fellow angels being cast from Heaven and becoming the devil and demons; but Ishtaron made a point of this not necessarily being part of the actual Christian tradition (depending on who you ask, I guess). Accessorily, one may argue whether the terms 'angel' and 'demon' reflect the actual nature of the being, or just the title/position.
WHDH
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WHDH
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Shepherd

Why is this theam important? Is it just interasting?

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