Forums → WEPR → Russian Jet shot down - Syrian Crisis General Discussion
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There is some controversy about this . As you are probably well aware right now, Turkish F-16s shot down a rusian military Jet over the Syrian border. Out of the 2 pilots, one may have survived while the other has most likely been killed by Syrian rebels. The rescue chopper was also hit by the rebels and forced to make emergency landing in a friendlier zone nearby.
The exact location of the Russian jet when it was shot down is a subject of much speculation. The current generally accepted theory is that the jet may have briefly flown over Turkey, but there was no airspace violation and the plane was shot down over Syria.
Whether there was a warning, or not was also a subject of much discussion. Turkish authorities reportedly claim that their pilots warned the Russian Jet at least once before locking on and shooting it down.
Here is where it gets complicated. Normally, during a violation of airspace and if the plane violating said airspace does not heed to the instructions it is given via radio, fighters are scrambled for interception. Standard procedure. However it seems highly unlikely that the Russian Jet did not respond to being intercepted like that. It is very unclear what happened but any 'sane' pilot would probably heed the warning of a fighter that is right behind and locked onto him, even if no airspace violation took place.
Russia is already hitting back hard in terms of economy. Some sources claim that all the benefits Turkey reaped from the Russian embargo are now gone and that move will inevitably harm the Turkish economy.
What are your thoughts on this? What do you think on the surrounding mystery? Did Turkey actually harm itself as some analysts claim?
- 57 Replies
Yes well, that is actually a thing...
What to say, I wonder? There have been a lot of Greek airspace violations, that part is true so a bit of sarcasm was in order to be honest
So, if US doesn't send representatives to elections, they never would be legitimate? Sober up, please.
NOT Assad's allies <> US/US puppets.
So, why I should think that they aren't gangs of bandits?
Because US calls them "good guys"?
Wholly irrelevant, since I never said that you should consider the rebels or Assad good guys
The point is that an election cannot be accepted as fair and democratic if parts of the population are prevented from voting and a climate of repression against opponents influences the results. Especially not when opponents are being arbitrarily arrested, detained and tortured [link]. If you don't see a problem with this, you don't really understand what democracy is about...
Were these "parts of population" prevented from voting by Assad?
According to linked in wikipiedia articles, didn't vote "moderate rebels" (I'm not sure that they are Syrians at all) and some people living in "democratic countries (US and its allies)"
Yes, Assad did these elections to get legitimacy. I wonder, why "citadel of democracy" didn't help him do these elections as close to democratic as possible, it's like US does everything to prevent Assad from gaining widely recognized legitimacy and does not care about democratic elections.
As for linked article... It looks like that.
It's easy to talk about democratic elections when you sit in warm house with canalization and last time your area was bombed happened in ww2. Assad deals with armed by US turkish fascists and Islamist radicals, which steal Syrian oil and hire mercenaries, This is war time for Syria, and this war goes against people which didn't sign Geneva convention.
All I said is that given the previous incidents of airspace violation between Russia and other countries, it seems probable that this one falls into the same pattern. In retrospect, it appears a bit silly, considering that previous incidents were more 'reconnaissance' flights, while the recent incident happened in a completely different kind of situation.
Most of these "incidents" fail into pattern "fly as close as possible to border to make route shorter. You know, as race cars before making a turn. It's just NATO makes a big deal of it, they want wage increase.
NOT Assad's allies US/US puppets.
Can you name me countries which would fit? I can't think of any.
Can you name me countries which would fit? I can't think of any.
There are plenty of countries that are not part of NATO OR Assad's alliance, but I personally think the most effective would be a coalition made up of both parties.
Were these "arts of population" prevented from voting by Assad?
Amnesty International is quite clear about the fact that those Syrian civilians are abducted by the authorities, yes. It isn't a new phenomenon either, it happened already regularly during the reign of Hafez al-Assad; though the numbers have increased drastically since 2011. This is typical of authoritarian regimes, as it undermines democratic processes.
According to linked in wikipiedia articles, didn't vote "moderate rebels" (I'm not sure that they are Syrians at all) and some people living in "democratic countries (US and its allies)"
Not only are wiki articles not a good end source, only good "first information"; trying to deny there are Syrians among the affected people to dismiss any criticism is also not very convincing. Don't forget that there are civilian opponents in the sections controlled by the government, too. Not all opponents raised arms, and not all civilians are pro government.
Yes, Assad did these elections to get legitimacy. I wonder, why "citadel of democracy" didn't help him do these elections as close to democratic as possible, it's like US does everything to prevent Assad from gaining widely recognized legitimacy and does not care about democratic elections.
First you accuse every independent organization of being US puppets, and now you accuse the US of not caring about democracy because they don't meddle with foreign elections? Make up your mind.
The US supports rebels against Assad, that's true (and I am far from happy by the fact that they arm those rebels, since many of those weapons end up in the hands of extremists - history repeats itself invariably...). The reason they do so, however, is precisely because the Assad dynasty has been keeping itself alive by persecuting the opposition. This started long before the most recent elections. The US just took advantage of the civil war resulting from the Arab spring movements. The conflict itself is essentially home-grown, not imported.
Most of these "incidents" fail into pattern "fly as close as possible to border to make route shorter. You know, as race cars before making a turn. It's just NATO makes a big deal of it, they want wage increase.
I don't object Russian pilots nearing the borders of other countries as long as they identify themselves when prompted. I also realize it probably regularly happens between other countries, as you and Doombreed have shown. However, in this case the mutism of the Russian pilots resulted in the jet being shot down. While the Turkish pilot made a mistake by shooting the Russian jet down, as there are apparently several ways to deal with such situations, it was also a mistake of the Russian pilots not to respond. Under the assumption that this is what happened, of course, but as mentioned before the evidence so far seems to point towards this.
The Germans, the Germans are coming! I wonder what a thousand ground soldiers would do in a non-support role.
Didn't want to create a separate thread; Perhaps someone could change the title to something with ISIS in it, and prevent any discussion from splitting into confused threads.
There are plenty of countries that are not part of NATO OR Assad's alliance, but I personally think the most effective would be a coalition made up of both parties.
There are so many of them that you couldn't drop 2-3 names from top of your head? Face it, saying that Assad was elected democratically is equal to saying that US is wrong for arming opposition. Only Russia and China are able to talk on that level, and China too heavily relies on good relationships with US to say that.
Amnesty International is quite clear about the fact that those Syrian civilians are abducted by the authorities, yes. It isn't a new phenomenon either, it happened already regularly during the reign of Hafez al-Assad; though the numbers have increased drastically since 2011. This is typical of authoritarian regimes, as it undermines democratic processes.
Amnesty international... Controlled by US organization
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd0p96miSK8
Likewise it could've been caused by increased support of AntiAssad forces and war becoming hotter, more money to hire terrorists inside government-controlled territories, more people would risk to die against Assad for promise of well-being of his family in EU or mix of both.
Not only are wiki articles not a good end source, only good "first information"; trying to deny there are Syrians among the affected people to dismiss any criticism is also not very convincing. Don't forget that there are civilian opponents in the sections controlled by the government, too. Not all opponents raised arms, and not all civilians are pro government.
And why Assad would detain them by thousands then? It would be counterproductive, aggravated relatives would join rebels/ISIS if he would shot them, detaining means thousands of jailers, and he needs people on the front. Most logical way for him - kick untrustworthy people out of the country.
Well, yes, one of S in ISIS is Syria, there are definitely some people which want to build such state and were influenced.
First you accuse every independent organization of being US puppets, and now you accuse the US of not caring about democracy because they don't meddle with foreign elections? Make up your mind.
I accuse the US of not caring about democracy because they meddle with foreign elections, like preventing embassies from voting.
There is another moment with religious belief shown by Doombreed that US for democracy is the Pope for Christianity
The reason they do so,o-i-l.
There are many countries which have worse regimes for human right, like Saudi Arabia. You don't see US arming rebels in them.
The conflict itself is essentially home-grown, not imported.
Thousands of islamists from all over the world back this claim.
The Germans, the Germans are coming! I wonder what a thousand ground soldiers would do in a non-support role.
These are also airgroup, most likely would station in Iraq and bomb ISIS there.
I am just wondering why Russian pilots would not respond when addressed by officials of a country when nearing its territory. The same thing occurred in the previous cases I mentioned, which is why I first made the connection.
Well, I no longer wonder why. Just finished reading several articles on the topic. I just want to add some sources to back me up on this one.
- First, here is a rather extensive list of Russian airspace violations, written on the occasion of the incursions by Russian aircraft in Turkish territory from October of this year. [link]. (Note that it was published in a Middle Eastern news website)
- Here now an article that explains why Russia acts that way, and why NATO does exactly the same [link].
Especially the latter link does a good job of paradoxically both supporting and putting in context the argument I made. I admit that cursory reading and watching of news creates a bias towards thinking this is mainly a Russian thing, while actually both sides do it. However it also shows that those operations are not simply "taking a large curve" as was wrongly suggested before.
Didn't want to create a separate thread; Perhaps someone could change the title to something with ISIS in it, and prevent any discussion from splitting into confused threads.
Let's see what @Doombreed suggests, since he's the OP.
Amnesty international... Controlled by US organization
Dismissing any criticism by implying it is controlled by the evil enemy is cheap propaganda drivel and it is starting to seriously bug me. It makes any kind of rational and objective discussion impossible.
Anyway here's what it says about their finances:
"The overwhelming majority of our income comes from individuals the world over.
These personal and unaffiliated donations allow Amnesty International (AI) to maintain full independence from any and all governments, political ideologies, economic interests or religions.
We neither seek nor accept any funds for human rights research from governments or political parties and we accept support only from businesses that have been carefully vetted.
By way of ethical fundraising leading to donations from individuals, we are able to stand firm and unwavering in our defence of universal and indivisible human rights.
The global Amnesty movement is made up of a network of national sections and the International Secretariat. "
Source
Please do some research and critical thinking next time, for a change.
I concur to the title change. It was my aim to incite a broader discussion about the situation anyway. This was just one incident in a series of events concerning the state in Syria and we did lack a greater topic about this.
There is another moment with religious belief shown by Doombreed that US for democracy is the Pope for Christianity
What? O_O Where?
Please do some research and critical thinking next time, for a change.
Would liar say that he is a liar?
I did some research for you:
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Page 10 of this report
http://www.ingoaccountabilitycharter.org/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/AI-2010-Report-to-INGO-Accountability-Charter-GRI-NGO-Level-C-v09.pdf
Some of their funding sources
Oak foundation (USA)
Education foundation of America (USA)
Membership fees (And I posted a link to director being from US government)
National Zip Code Lottery (Netherlands) - There are tracks of Netherlands being US proxy bank for funding "rojects".
http://rijksoverheid.nl/bestanden/documenten-en-publicaties/publicaties/2013/04/18/door-de-nederlandse-ambassade-gesteunde-projecten-in-moskou-in-2012/door-de-nederlandse-ambassade-gesteunde-projecten-in-moskou-in-2012.pdf
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Page 8 of this report
http://web.archive.org/web/20120912161612/http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/FIN40/007/2011/en/bda6d734-96ed-4474-a0a2-fae044f8caa1/fin400072011en.pdf
UK government structure gives them grant
http://web.archive.org/web/20140328214258/http://www.amnesty.org/sites/impact.amnesty.org/files/PUBLIC/documents/AI-Ltd-and-AI-Charity-Ltd-Report-and-Financial-Statements.pdf
Page 42, note 17.
Eurocommission and MacArthur fondation listed as sponsors...
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If you can read in Hebrew, you would find these interesting
http://www.amnesty.org.il/_Uploads/dbsAttachedFiles/For2009.pdf
http://www.amnesty.org.il/_Uploads/dbsAttachedFiles/foreign.pdf
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What? O_O Where?
My bad, you wanted to see "Independent organization" on elections, and by now I don't believe in such things, they are mostly US operated, so it went independent= US in my brain.
There are so many of them that you couldn't drop 2-3 names from top of your head? Face it, saying that Assad was elected democratically is equal to saying that US is wrong for arming opposition. Only Russia and China are able to talk on that level, and China too heavily relies on good relationships with US to say that.
I just wanted to avoid dropping names of countries. I admit it, I am not too well-informed on the exact number of NATO members, or nations allied to Assad. But there are 200 countries in the world right now. You think that ALL of them are in one of these 2 categories?
Besides, I've already stated that a coalition of both parties would probably be more effective in my opinion.
And know this...hailing from a country with an authoritarian government very recently in its modern history (let's not forget, the dictators were brought down in 1974), I know how easily results can be faked...the dictators faked a referendum result back then to prevent the people from getting an actual democracy. So I wouldn't rely too much on that 88.something-% if I were you.
I did some research for you:
Cherry picking. None of those foundations appear to have any affiliation with any government, which makes it irrelevant to the point. As for the funds from government structures and commissions, they are for specific purposes only. That is compatible with AI's statement and does not compromise their independence. So not relevant either.
The Oak Foundation is not even an American group, it has many offices, one being in America. In that case I suspect confirmation bias, as you probably just saw 'US' and jumped to conclusions.
I just wanted to avoid dropping names of countries. I admit it, I am not too well-informed on the exact number of NATO members, or nations allied to Assad. But there are 200 countries in the world right now. You think that ALL of them are in one of these 2 categories?
Result of Cold war, world is still pretty polarized. Thanks to internet, though, it's easier to communicate.
Realistically, most of these 200 countries wouldn't risk angering US for the sake of own gain. If politician chooses "support Assad, lose US support and benefits it gives", most likely it would result in politician losing next his elections. So Assad is supported by countries which have nothing to lose - countries, which were invaded by US and left in ruins. Both figuratively and literally. Democracy doesn't thrive in such conditions, so claims like these look silly from them.
And know this...hailing from a country with an authoritarian government very recently in its modern history (let's not forget, the dictators were brought down in 1974), I know how easily results can be faked...the dictators faked a referendum result back then to prevent the people from getting an actual democracy. So I wouldn't rely too much on that 88.something-% if I were you.
I'm from Russia, I have seen lost election results faked by ruling party to let it rule further, I have seen won election results faked by winning party (it happens, there are plenty of asslickers which would do it for the sake of "being useful", I have seen opposition leader winning election despite attempts to fake results, and I have seen a lot of different voting distribution (90% ones too).
Assad's results look authentic - in given circumstances majority of Syrians think that "they would've done the same". One of the reasons - his regime is most secular one, can be seen in interviews with refuges and footage - Assad doesn't enforce strict muslim clothes for women, for example.
Have you ever asked yourself what was the science behind the downed jet case? Me neither. However, two astrophysicists did! Head here to read about what they found out.
Science!
As for the funds from government structures and commissions, they are for specific purposes only.
Erm, they aren't supposed to take any money, they promise so.
We neither seek nor accept any funds for human rights research from governments or political parties and we accept support only from businesses that have been carefully vetted.
So, they are lying about their finances. Fool me once, you know...
Science!
“A change of course of 90 degrees can only be achieved with an object that’s many times heavier or faster than the jet,” the physicists write."
Rocket with infrared sensor hits engine, one stops working, another continues, decentralization of thrust and unexpected turn in result. Because turn was to the left, I suppose right engine continued to work.
This also undermines
"Because the vertical movement is only dependent on gravity",
worked engine could add a lot of downward moment, making its calculated height higher.
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