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saint_of_gaming
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saint_of_gaming
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Shepherd

I would love challenging questions about my faith if anyone is still here.

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saint_of_gaming
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saint_of_gaming
606 posts
Shepherd

"But why? Theologically speaking, why?"
1.
There is a parable about this (Mt 21:28-32); and also about my latter assertion (Acts 4:12). The first makes sense because a benevolent God values equality of access to heaven and children tend to have their religious beliefs (as well as other axiomatic beliefs) ingrained in them at an early age by their parents. The second follows since a bigger community of good people has more goodness than a small community of good people (remember I'm thinking in terms of eternal limit states so to speak not temporary intermediate states) and so God somehow benevolently guarantees this.
As to what you say later, it primarily boils down to hyper cynicism about humanity. I'm from Missouri a state in which young women smash each other's skulls against the pavement because they have different skin colors; not to mention that our flag and state symbol look a lot like Russia's (the definition of humanity is an abomination hyper cynicism). Where are you from (assuming it isn't a security risk and you don't mind sharing)?

sciller45
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sciller45
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Hey, Missouri has an excellent flag. One of the best, I'd say.

saint_of_gaming
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saint_of_gaming
606 posts
Shepherd

Why thank you. Croatia has a VERY excellent flag and VERY excellent cuisine.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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The first makes sense because a benevolent God values equality of access to heaven and children tend to have their religious beliefs (as well as other axiomatic beliefs) ingrained in them at an early age by their parents.
From what I can gather, this is a parable that Jesus told to priests, powerful religious men, to whom he says that tax collectors and prostitutes will enter heaven before them. Sounds like a critique of organized, powerful churches imo.
And yes, you're right, belief is most strongly correlated with the belief of the parents, which is one of the many facts supporting my view that belief is just another cultural aspect of our societies, not absolute truth.

The second follows since a bigger community of good people has more goodness than a small community of good people (remember I'm thinking in terms of eternal limit states so to speak not temporary intermediate states) and so God somehow benevolently guarantees this.

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
I don't quite see how what you say follows from that. It does tell me that Jesus is supposedly the only name that can heal and save people. Only his name, not that of the pope or any other saint or priest.

As to what you say later, it primarily boils down to hyper cynicism about humanity.

Hypocrite You're the one believing in what you call asymptotic total depravity. That is hyper cynic. For my part, I believe that humanity at its core is good, but that we are shaped by the systems of power and oppression that we live under. There is ample evidence that the environment has a big impact on people, and systems like patriarchy, capitalism and such are evidently real. If you want to understand people, you need to consider the environment they live in, grew up in. In my opinion there is no absolute good and evil, and people are not born fundamentally good or evil. I think that is realistic, not cynical.

I'm from Missouri a state in which young women smash each other's skulls against the pavement because they have different skin colors;

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Care to elaborate?

not to mention that our flag and state symbol look a lot like Russia's (the definition of humanity is an abomination hyper cynicism).

Again, I'm sorry but that sentence makes no sense to me?

Where are you from (assuming it isn't a security risk and you don't mind sharing)?

Switzerland
saint_of_gaming
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saint_of_gaming
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Shepherd

Switzerland is a brighter place certainly, but then again look at all the Catholic public holidays they have.
The Merriam-Webster's definition of hypocrite is
1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
I'm not seeing how I did either one of these (although I might miss the first easier than the second).

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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I'm not seeing how I did either one of these (although I might miss the first easier than the second).

More #2, although I might have misinterpreted the intention behind what you wrote, but it felt like you disregarded what I said as hyper cynical despite yourself stating to have a hyper cynical view.
saint_of_gaming
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saint_of_gaming
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Oh no you misunderstood me. What I was trying to say was that the Church can legitimately claim to be the best human institution that can be thought; that just isn't saying a whole lot sadly.

saint_of_gaming
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saint_of_gaming
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Shepherd

Yes, I know what I just said right there was shocking, but I still currently believe it. Take the average of everybody good and bad in any given human institution and see what you're left with. Of course this also requires believing that the present Western society built upon abortion is completely outrageous, but I could see that discussion heading into interesting topics like the possibility of substantial extraterrestrial human settlement.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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but then again look at all the Catholic public holidays they have.

Depends on the canton, some are traditionally catholic, the others are traditionally reformed.

Oh no you misunderstood me.

I see what you mean now, sorry.
And I definitely disagree, I can think of numerous better ways to organize. But I guess that's the problem with this aspect of Catholic faith, the cynicism about human nature which leads to a complete lack of trust and as a consequence, organizations and institutions that believe the only way to do things is through shaming and controlling. Which is textbook abusive relationship, and that explains a lot about why the church is what it is.
I just feel like saying that's the best we can get is not only cynic but defeatist. Not trying to diminish any bad experiences you, me and so many others made because of disabilities and other factors, obviously many people act in bad ways, but chalking it all up to 'human nature' is not helpful. I know it's not true because there are plenty of people helping others, too, and many structural issues leading to e.g. ableism have been known for a while; there are people working to fix that, and a lot of progress has been made. Just not everywhere, and not nearly enough. But that's just another reason to keep at it.

[...]the present Western society built upon abortion[...]

The practice of abortion is all over the history of humanity, fluctuating over time and place but it's always been around. Even in "Western" societies attitudes about abortion fluctuate.

As an aside, I wonder: if it's so outrageous, why does the Bible say nothing about abortion?

but I could see that discussion heading into interesting topics like the possibility of substantial extraterrestrial human settlement.

Isn't that just postponing the issue? Extraterrestrial settlements don't appear de novo, they would be built and settled by people who were socialized in the previous society and would bring their values and ideas with them. If there's a problem we need to fix it before that.
saint_of_gaming
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saint_of_gaming
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Shepherd

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_in_Switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazelwood_East_High_School
"She said to them: I know not how you were formed in my womb: for I neither gave you breath, nor soul, nor life, neither did I frame the limbs of every one of you." (2 Maccabees 7:22)
Catholics use a slightly different Bible than what Protestants use and even in that case aren't sola Scriptura much less sola literal sense of Scriptura, but that is getting into a completely new topic.
The reason I brought up extraterrestrial human settlements was because in the last 60 or so years Europe-North America-ANZA societies have shifted from growth to replacement birthrates. Then in the global South (Latin America-Africa) the governments do not function as much (or in some cases at all). Consequently, they don't provide their citizens with means necessary to have a replacement birthrate with frequent (male-female non-**** non-oral) sexual activity. This has led to all sorts of changing political winds (most conspicuously Donald Trump but see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Dutch_general_election for the more benign European version). To my mind this raises a whole host of metaphysical or physical issues: Is human population growth metaphysically necessary? What if earth runs out of resources so to speak? What is the moral/ethical thing to do in this situation? What about the physics of spacecraft construction? Wouldn't this be a possible way to help solve climate change (send Earth's surplus greenhouse gases to Mars), which the present world political order seems incapable of addressing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sixth_Extinction:_An_Unnatural_History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming
https://armorgames.com/play/1205/warlords
https://www.gog.com/en/game/moons_of_ardan

Solas128
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Solas128
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Are Catholics and Christians the same or are they different?

saint_of_gaming
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saint_of_gaming
606 posts
Shepherd

They are the same although the words are often used differently in practice (Catholic vs. Protestant).

sciller45
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sciller45
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It's like asking if mammals and cats are the same. No. Cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats.

Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic. Since you're asking this question, I assume you're American. It's like asking "Are Baptists and Christians the same?".

Solas128
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Solas128
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Real.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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@Solas128 The cat and mammal analogy is really fitting. Basically, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the three Abrahamic religions who worship slightly different core variants of the same god. Each of them is an umbrella group subdivided into numerous denominations, each of which are holding somewhat different beliefs and practices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_movements
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches

You could go on and on, which is why I like to say there are as many different forms of faith as there are individual believers.

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