Adding 'morality' to it implies that the moral field was the only one- and I was mainly arguing your statement 'they aren't undeserving out it' because whether they deserve it or not is moot, and earlier you DID say that they had it coming. . .which implies that the torture could be used for some sort of vengeance for it. I wasn't arguing your statements as much as the implications of them.
I don't do anything if I don't think it's moral. I assumed everyone was that way, guess I was wrong. And those statements were only meant to show that I show no love for them, and I went to a little bit of an extreme. Mostly I didn't want to get bashed by conservatives, because generally I'm conservative and that would be stupid.
I understand why you'd phrase those statements that way now. Thank you. And torture is never moral- yet sometimes still necessary. Morality can't always be a deciding factor~
I don't do anything if I don't think it's moral. I assumed everyone was that way, guess I was wrong. And those statements were only meant to show that I show no love for them, and I went to a little bit of an extreme. Mostly I didn't want to get bashed by conservatives, because generally I'm conservative and that would be stupid.
What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, No more.
Okay, thanks Hopefully I wasn't at your throat too much, just didn't want to leave with peole thinking I'm a torturing psycho. Anyway, in morality, if your torture to get information that can save lives, that would still be considered moral in my opinion. But if it's just for spite,
What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, No more.
I love America. That kind of love. It seemed fairly obvious that I meant that, but if my choice of vocabulary makes it difficult for you to understand what I'm saying, I'll use less complicated words next time.
What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, No more.
very nice musical reference, props to you.
I don't do anything if I don't think it's moral. I assumed everyone was that way, guess I was wrong. And those statements were only meant to show that I show no love for them
Well the thing is the line of morality has to be crossed sometimes to obtain the goal. Which is why many countries resort to torture.
But torture won't get info that would dave lives, most likely- so that's why I consider morality something not applicable to torture.
I see. But in the same way, the torture doesn't kill them, so as long as it helps us (not just a little bit, of course), then it might still be comparable.
Well the thing is the line of morality has to be crossed sometimes to obtain the goal. Which is why many countries resort to torture.
The goal is to aid this country, which is moral. That's why I consider it moral in those few cases.
But torture won't get info that would dave lives, most likely- so that's why I consider morality something not applicable to torture.
I'd like to use the example of how torture has saved lives. In March 2002 Abu Zabadayah was captured by the US. According to published CIA reports, he provided vital information preventing the detonation of a radioactive bomb in the US. He also gave details as to the whereabouts of al-Shibh, a top al Qaeda member who was subsequently captured. Al-Sibh then gave information leading to the capture of Sheikh Mohammed, the al Qaeda head of operations.
Torture does and has been proven to work, if executed in the correct manner.
@Firelfy: I understand. That's why the 'most likely' is in there t only helps if either executed correctly, or executed on the psychologically correct type of person.
@Firelfy: I understand. That's why the 'most likely' is in there t only helps if either executed correctly, or executed on the psychologically correct type of person.
All people break under torture. My previous post was in reference to thelistman's claim that pain infliction does not work. It can work on some people, it increases resistance in others. I am referring to other torture methods.
People change when they get to prison. They may be heroes outside, but inside they change. The conditions are different. People are afraid of the unkown. They are afraid of being tortured, of being held for a long time. Try to see what it is like, when you are hungry and tired and afraid, when you are isolated and have no clue what is going on. Once you believe that anything can happen-torture, execution, indefinite imprisonment, even the persecution oof your loved ones, that's how torture works.
Under pressure, initially torture victims look out for number 1. A very large part of a person is their circumatsnces. No matter who you are before your arrest, your sense of self will blur in custody. Isolation, fear, deprivation force a person to retreat, to reorient themself and to reorder their priorities. For most men, the hierachy of loyalty under stress is 1)self, 2)group, 3)family, 4)friends. In other words, even the most dedicated terrorist when pushed hard enough,, will act to preserve and protect himself at the expense of anyone or anything else. There's an old Arab saying. Let one hundred mothers cry, but not my mother-but rather my mother than me.
The bottom line for me is that if you can save lives by inflicting severe pain on another individual, then that is what must be done. I respect your opinion to disagree, but I'd be willing to condone torture to protect your right to that opinion.
The bottom line for me is that if you can save lives by inflicting severe pain on another individual, then that is what must be done. I respect your opinion to disagree, but I'd be willing to condone torture to protect your right to that opinion.
What happens when you start torturing the wrong people? What happens when you have innocent people? How long do you torture them? Until you get a confession... even if they are innocent?
