Forums → WEPR → [necro] Why you don't believe in God?

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Zep0Q

71 posts

Nomad

Posted August 13, '09 12:58am UTC

Before you comment, please, read everything, I'm sure that after you read, your life will be changed.

In the following sentences I will explain how stupid is to not believe in God, and I'm gonna use logical thinking and science.

Either "Everything came from nothing", like the "big bang" , witch is impossible, because nothing can only make nothing, or "Something always existed and made everything" like God.

God made this world, by this world I mean time, space and matter, so if God made this world, He lives outside of time, space and matter which means He's eternal, omnipresent and all-powerful.

For those of you who say that the big bang made the universe, I have this sentence: Nothing is the cause of it's own existence.
This doesn't apply to God, because if He doesn't lives in time, He didn't had a beginning, He always existed.
If the universe always was then, we could not reach this moment in time, if something is trapped in time, that means it had a beginning.

Every change that happens everywhere in the universe it's more closer to destruction.
Second law of thermodynamics:
The energy available after a chemical reaction is less than that at the beginning of a reaction; energy conversions are not 100% efficient.
The disorder in the universe always increases.
With each change in form, some energy is degraded to a less useful form and given off into the surroundings, usually as low-quality heat.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is commonly known as the Law of Increased Entropy. While quantity remains the same, the quality of matter/energy deteriorates gradually over time. How so? Usable energy is inevitably used for productivity, growth and repair. In the process, usable energy is converted into unusable energy. Thus, usable energy is irretrievably lost in the form of unusable energy.

If God didn't made life, then how did non-life, became life?
As I said, nothing is the cause of it's own existence, life comes from life, your parents were alive when they made you.

Did you knew that a 2x2 inch capacity full with someone's DNA can sustain 6000000000 times more information then a 140 GB hard drive?
I guess you didn't knew, did evolution made your DNA?
God made your DNA, of course!

What about the monkeys?
If we evolved from them, why they stayed as they are? they took a long coffee break, I guess.

What about the fossils?
The scientists say that it takes millions and billions and zilions of years for living tissue to become a fossil, well here's 2 pictures with a cawboy's leg fossilized, enjoy
1#

2#

After all I have showed you, now I'm gonna say that you should accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, because He died for our sins and He didn't ask something from us, just to love our brothers and sisters and to believe in Him.
Anyone can ask for forgiveness as long as he or she is not dead, no matter what they did God can forgive them, if they repent from theirs sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
God is mercyful and just, His justice is not denyed by His mercy and this is the reason why God sent His Son Jesus to pay the price for us.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Before you comment, please, read everything, I'm sure that after you read, your life will be changed.\r\n\r\nIn the following sentences I will explain how stupid is to not believe in God, and I'm gonna use logical thinking and science.\r\n\r\nEither "Everything came from nothing", like the "big bang" , witch is impossible, because nothing can only make nothing, or "Something always existed and made everything" like God.\r\n\r\nGod made this world, by this world I mean time, space and matter, so if God made this world, He lives outside of time, space and matter which means He's eternal, omnipresent and all-powerful.\r\n\r\nFor those of you who say that the big bang made the universe, I have this sentence: Nothing is the cause of it's own existence. \r\nThis doesn't apply to God, because if He doesn't lives in time, He didn't had a beginning, He always existed.\r\nIf the universe always was then, we could not reach this moment in time, if something is trapped in time, that means it had a beginning.\r\n\r\nEvery change that happens everywhere in the universe it's more closer to destruction.\r\nSecond law of thermodynamics:\r\nThe energy available after a chemical reaction is less than that at the beginning of a reaction; energy conversions are not 100% efficient.\r\nThe disorder in the universe always increases.\r\nWith each change in form, some energy is degraded to a less useful form and given off into the surroundings, usually as low-quality heat.\r\nThe Second Law of Thermodynamics is commonly known as the Law of Increased Entropy. While quantity remains the same, the quality of matter/energy deteriorates gradually over time. How so? Usable energy is inevitably used for productivity, growth and repair. In the process, usable energy is converted into unusable energy. Thus, usable energy is irretrievably lost in the form of unusable energy.\r\n\r\nIf God didn't made life, then how did non-life, became life?\r\nAs I said, nothing is the cause of it's own existence, life comes from life, your parents were alive when they made you.\r\n\r\nDid you knew that a 2x2 inch capacity full with someone's DNA can sustain 6000000000 times more information then a 140 GB hard drive?\r\nI guess you didn't knew, did evolution made your DNA?\r\nGod made your DNA, of course!\r\n\r\nWhat about the monkeys?\r\nIf we evolved from them, why they stayed as they are? they took a long coffee break, I guess.\r\n\r\nWhat about the fossils?\r\nThe scientists say that it takes millions and billions and zilions of years for living tissue to become a fossil, well here's 2 pictures with a cawboy's leg fossilized, enjoy :) \r\n1#\r\n[img]http://www.bible.ca/tracks/limestone-cowboy-boot-outside.jpg[/img]\r\n2#\r\n[img]http://www.bible.ca/tracks/limestone-cowboy-boot-inside.jpg[/img]\r\n\r\nAfter all I have showed you, now I'm gonna say that you should accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, because He died for our sins and He didn't ask something from us, just to love our brothers and sisters and to believe in Him.\r\nAnyone can ask for forgiveness as long as he or she is not dead, no matter what they did God can forgive them, if they repent from theirs sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.\r\nGod is mercyful and just, His justice is not denyed by His mercy and this is the reason why God sent His Son Jesus to pay the price for us.\r\n\r\nJohn 3:16\r\n"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

881 Replies

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Kody

60 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 2:40pm UTC

Ok, I admit the boot picture is a bit odd, but since I personally never did well with geology I'm not going to argue on either side about that one.

Genesis. When's the last time snakes spoke? And...I'm no fanatic, but I recall a chapter where a Nazirite lost his super strength because his backstabbing wife(who never actually intended to be his wife, she was after the bounty)cut his hair. Then, he prayed to God and got his strength back and pushed over a bunch of pillars. I don't remember the name, though.

<joke> Maybe the snakes evolved enough for speech.</joke> In all seriousness, it was not an animal, it was Satan. He took the form of a serpent so as to make it more believable than say, a huge intimidating shadow/ball of fire/nothingness speaking to her. And the story of the strong man was Samson. God gave Samson strength his whole life, and the only condition was to not cut his hair. When Delilah did it he lost his strength and the Philistines captured him. At a celebration he was standing by a pillar, bald and blind, when he repented and asked God for strength enough to deal a blow against the heathen army. God did so and Samson destroyed thousands of them. Now let's break it down.

Firstly, although I believe this story is literal, it may have been a metaphor, as are many Scriptures.
Also, just because we do not have solid proof of the story does not mean we won't find any. Heck look at Troy. Everyone thought it was a myth created by Homer, but archaeologists found it.Source
No offence, but have you ever even read a Bible? Honestly before you get into debates you should know what you're talking about.

Heh heh. All of us is biased, you can't deny that.

Maybe we all are, but I still study theology and can easily back up my beliefs.

Ok, I admit the boot picture is a bit odd, but since I personally never did well with geology I'm not going to argue on either side about that one.\r\n[quote]Genesis. When's the last time snakes spoke? And...I'm no fanatic, but I recall a chapter where a Nazirite lost his super strength because his backstabbing wife(who never actually intended to be his wife, she was after the bounty)cut his hair. Then, he prayed to God and got his strength back and pushed over a bunch of pillars. I don't remember the name, though. [/quote]\r\n<joke> Maybe the snakes evolved enough for speech.</joke> In all seriousness, it was not an animal, it was Satan. He took the form of a serpent so as to make it more believable than say, a huge intimidating shadow/ball of fire/nothingness speaking to her. And the story of the strong man was Samson. God gave Samson strength his whole life, and the only condition was to not cut his hair. When Delilah did it he lost his strength and the Philistines captured him. At a celebration he was standing by a pillar, bald and blind, when he repented and asked God for strength enough to deal a blow against the heathen army. God did so and Samson destroyed thousands of them. Now let's break it down.\r\n\r\nFirstly, although I believe this story is literal, it may have been a metaphor, as are many Scriptures.\r\nAlso, just because we do not have solid proof of the story does not mean we won't find any. Heck look at Troy. Everyone thought it was a myth created by Homer, but archaeologists found it.[url=http://archaeology.about.com/od/hterms/g/troy.htm]Source[/url]\r\nNo offence, but have you ever even read a Bible? Honestly before you get into debates you should know what you're talking about.\r\n[quote]Heh heh. All of us is biased, you can't deny that. [/quote] Maybe we all are, but I still study theology and can easily back up my beliefs.

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Moabarmorgamer

8,570 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 2:47pm UTC

Genesis. When's the last time snakes spoke? And...I'm no fanatic, but I recall a chapter where a Nazirite lost his super strength because his backstabbing wife(who never actually intended to be his wife, she was after the bounty)cut his hair. Then, he prayed to God and got his strength back and pushed over a bunch of pillars. I don't remember the name, though.

<joke> Maybe the snakes evolved enough for speech.</joke> In all seriousness, it was not an animal, it was Satan. He took the form of a serpent so as to make it more believable than say, a huge intimidating shadow/ball of fire/nothingness speaking to her. And the story of the strong man was Samson. God gave Samson strength his whole life, and the only condition was to not cut his hair. When Delilah did it he lost his strength and the Philistines captured him. At a celebration he was standing by a pillar, bald and blind, when he repented and asked God for strength enough to deal a blow against the heathen army. God did so and Samson destroyed thousands of them. Now let's break it down.

Firstly, although I believe this story is literal, it may have been a metaphor, as are many Scriptures.
Also, just because we do not have solid proof of the story does not mean we won't find any. Heck look at Troy. Everyone thought it was a myth created by Homer, but archaeologists found it.Source
No offence, but have you ever even read a Bible? Honestly before you get into debates you should know what you're talking about.

Samson! That was it. I knew it was something with an S...
You know the drill by now.

<joke> Maybe the snakes evolved enough for speech.</joke> In all seriousness, it was not an animal, it was Satan. He took the form of a serpent so as to make it more believable than say, a huge intimidating shadow/ball of fire/nothingness speaking to her. And the story of the strong man was Samson. God gave Samson strength his whole life, and the only condition was to not cut his hair. When Delilah did it he lost his strength and the Philistines captured him. At a celebration he was standing by a pillar, bald and blind, when he repented and asked God for strength enough to deal a blow against the heathen army. God did so and Samson destroyed thousands of them. Now let's break it down.

Alright. Satan convinced the mortals in the form of a snake. I can give you that. But why then, was the snake punished? Is it not so? God shunned the snake as an evil animal, but if Satan was controlling it, then it wasn't the snake's fault. And that bit...you can't justify. I mean, Nazirites are people who never cut their hair, never shave, and never drink wine. And that's supposed to make them some sort of superhero? There's no such thing.
Yes, not everything needs physical truth. Homer was considered insane, but Troy existed. I'm not saying you need physical proof, I'm saying you need something that's not, well, ridiculous. I mean...just look at the Bible. It's a story about a super powerful being who made the world and the people, but then got mad and made their descendants suffer. Basically. I just find that rather hard to believe.
Yeah, I've read the bible. I take offense from that! Just because I didn't take the time to memorize something I don't believe in doesn't mean I've never read it! That's kind of insulting. What in my words has led you to believe I've never read the bible.

[quote]    Genesis. When's the last time snakes spoke? And...I'm no fanatic, but I recall a chapter where a Nazirite lost his super strength because his backstabbing wife(who never actually intended to be his wife, she was after the bounty)cut his hair. Then, he prayed to God and got his strength back and pushed over a bunch of pillars. I don't remember the name, though.\r\n\r\n<joke> Maybe the snakes evolved enough for speech.</joke> In all seriousness, it was not an animal, it was Satan. He took the form of a serpent so as to make it more believable than say, a huge intimidating shadow/ball of fire/nothingness speaking to her. And the story of the strong man was Samson. God gave Samson strength his whole life, and the only condition was to not cut his hair. When Delilah did it he lost his strength and the Philistines captured him. At a celebration he was standing by a pillar, bald and blind, when he repented and asked God for strength enough to deal a blow against the heathen army. God did so and Samson destroyed thousands of them. Now let's break it down.\r\n\r\nFirstly, although I believe this story is literal, it may have been a metaphor, as are many Scriptures.\r\nAlso, just because we do not have solid proof of the story does not mean we won't find any. Heck look at Troy. Everyone thought it was a myth created by Homer, but archaeologists found it.Source\r\nNo offence, but have you ever even read a Bible? Honestly before you get into debates you should know what you're talking about.[/quote]\r\n\r\nSamson! That was it. I knew it was something with an S...\r\nYou know the drill by now.\r\n[quote]\r\n<joke> Maybe the snakes evolved enough for speech.</joke> In all seriousness, it was not an animal, it was Satan. He took the form of a serpent so as to make it more believable than say, a huge intimidating shadow/ball of fire/nothingness speaking to her. And the story of the strong man was Samson. God gave Samson strength his whole life, and the only condition was to not cut his hair. When Delilah did it he lost his strength and the Philistines captured him. At a celebration he was standing by a pillar, bald and blind, when he repented and asked God for strength enough to deal a blow against the heathen army. God did so and Samson destroyed thousands of them. Now let's break it down.[/quote]\r\nAlright. Satan convinced the mortals in the form of a snake. I can give you that. But why then, was the snake punished? Is it not so? God shunned the snake as an evil animal, but if Satan was controlling it, then it wasn't the snake's fault. And that bit...you can't justify. I mean, Nazirites are people who never cut their hair, never shave, and never drink wine. And that's supposed to make them some sort of superhero? There's no such thing. \r\nYes, not everything needs physical truth. Homer was considered insane, but Troy existed. I'm not saying you need physical proof, I'm saying you need something that's not, well, ridiculous. I mean...just look at the Bible. It's a story about a super powerful being who made the world and the people, but then got mad and made their descendants suffer. Basically. I just find that rather hard to believe.\r\nYeah, I've read the bible. I take offense from that! Just because I didn't take the time to memorize something I don't believe in doesn't mean I've never read it! That's kind of insulting. What in my words has led you to believe I've never read the bible.

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Moabarmorgamer

8,570 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 2:48pm UTC

Actually, I rescind that bit. That part, I was only talking about Genesis, not the rest.
Mea culpe.

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Kody

60 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 3:08pm UTC

Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to. I was just saying that it seems like not many people on these forums know the Bible and yet debate it :\\
As for the serpent being cursed, if you think about it all animals were "cursed". In Eden they lived peacefully and in harmony. Now they kill, eat, and destroy eachother. So it was just a side product of man's fall, which in effect created the food chain because now that man could die, they had to eat, and what they ate had to eat, etc. And the lack of cutting hair and wine and unclean animals was not what made Samson strong, it was God's power. The other things were just rules, possibly to keep him in line, but I honestly don't know.
How is the Bible, ridiculous? God always existed and created us to love and to love him. Evolution on the other hand says that coincidentally an explosion occured, making planets spin through space until our Solar system was created, and somehow chemicals created a single cell organism, etc. What made the explosion? What designed the very concept of an "explosion"? What made the universe that the explosion occured in? What made the chemicals that created the organism "ancestor"? What made the planets? Not to mention the one planet spinning the "wrong" way, how the planets became gaseous, terrous, etc. and how the organism mutated into an intelligent man.
As I stated before, it takes more faith to believe in evolution than in Creationism.

Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to. I was just saying that it seems like not many people on these forums know the Bible and yet debate it :\\\r\nAs for the serpent being cursed, if you think about it all animals were "cursed". In Eden they lived peacefully and in harmony. Now they kill, eat, and destroy eachother. So it was just a side product of man's fall, which in effect created the food chain because now that man could die, they had to eat, and what they ate had to eat, etc. And the lack of cutting hair and wine and unclean animals was not what made Samson strong, it was God's power. The other things were just rules, possibly to keep him in line, but I honestly don't know.\r\nHow is the Bible, ridiculous? God always existed and created us to love and to love him. Evolution on the other hand says that coincidentally an explosion occured, making planets spin through space until our Solar system was created, and somehow chemicals created a single cell organism, etc. What made the explosion? What designed the very concept of an "explosion"? What made the universe that the explosion occured in? What made the chemicals that created the organism "ancestor"? What made the planets? Not to mention the one planet spinning the "wrong" way, how the planets became gaseous, terrous, etc. and how the organism mutated into an intelligent man.\r\nAs I stated before, it takes more faith to believe in evolution than in Creationism.

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Mike412

332 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 3:25pm UTC

God always existed and created us to love and to love him.

Can you, just for once, not act as though Christianity is a fact? I don't claim that evolution and the big bang is an absolute fact. I back them up, but I am willing to acknowledge that they have flaws and may not be right

What made the explosion

The big bang is actually improperly named, its more of an expansion, not an explosion

What designed the very concept of an "explosion"

Again...stuck in the Creationist viewpoint. It doesn't have to be created by something to exist

What made the universe that the explosion occured in

The universe is actually an interesting term. Technically, it's nothingness except for the contents that were released from the big bang, so it didn't need to be created since it doesn't really exist.

What made the chemicals that created the organism "ancestor

The materials from the big bang.

What made the planets

Objects like dust forming around larger objects that created gravity and pulled in more materials and grew from that.

How was God created? Why would a God that is omnipotent not be able to destroy something like Satan? Why wouldn't he be able to see the outcomes of his creations, like Eve eating the apple? If, truly, he is all powerful being he's painted to be, he should have foreseen what would happen. Why does he not reveal himself? What need does a God have for faith, and why are those who don't have faith in him punished? Why would a being that loves us let us suffer for no reason? That's not love as so many people claim, when was the last time you let someone you love suffer for something that is no fault of their own?

[quote]God always existed and created us to love and to love him.[/quote]\r\n\r\nCan you, just for once, not act as though Christianity is a fact? I don't claim that evolution and the big bang is an absolute fact. I back them up, but I am willing to acknowledge that they have flaws and may not be right\r\n\r\n[quote]What made the explosion[/quote]\r\n\r\nThe big bang is actually improperly named, its more of an expansion, not an explosion\r\n\r\n[quote]What designed the very concept of an "explosion"[/quote]\r\n\r\nAgain...stuck in the Creationist viewpoint. It doesn't have to be created by something to exist\r\n\r\n[quote]What made the universe that the explosion occured in[/quote]\r\n\r\nThe universe is actually an interesting term. Technically, it's nothingness except for the contents that were released from the big bang, so it didn't need to be created since it doesn't really exist.\r\n\r\n[quote]What made the chemicals that created the organism "ancestor[/quote]\r\n\r\nThe materials from the big bang.\r\n\r\n[quote]What made the planets[/quote]\r\n\r\nObjects like dust forming around larger objects that created gravity and pulled in more materials and grew from that.\r\n\r\n\r\nHow was God created? Why would a God that is omnipotent not be able to destroy something like Satan? Why wouldn't he be able to see the outcomes of his creations, like Eve eating the apple? If, truly, he is all powerful being he's painted to be, he should have foreseen what would happen. Why does he not reveal himself? What need does a God have for faith, and why are those who don't have faith in him punished? Why would a being that loves us let us suffer for no reason? That's not love as so many people claim, when was the last time you let someone you love suffer for something that is no fault of their own?

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Moabarmorgamer

8,570 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 3:29pm UTC

Ah, whatever. Nobody is going to be converted via internet. So why don't we all just agree that Socrates is a genius for this quote, and let people believe what they want?
"True wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing"- Socrates
*yawn* I'm getting sick of debating.
I had fun though. Thanks for debating with me =)

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Kody

60 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 4:24pm UTC

Can you, just for once, not act as though Christianity is a fact? I don't claim that evolution and the big bang is an absolute fact. I back them up, but I am willing to acknowledge that they have flaws and may not be right

But there are no flaws in Christianity.

Again...stuck in the Creationist viewpoint. It doesn't have to be created by something to exist

So if a hamburger just appeared out of nowhere and landed in your lap you would be fine with it?

The universe is actually an interesting term. Technically, it's nothingness except for the contents that were released from the big bang, so it didn't need to be created since it doesn't really exist.

Ok, what created the concept of the universe and more specifically, its contents?

The materials from the big bang.

So if I get paper and a pen and lay them on a table for millions of years I'll come back to an encyclopedia on the table?

Objects like dust forming around larger objects that created gravity and pulled in more materials and grew from that.

How did the dust get there?

How was God created?

He always was in existence and always will be. He is limitless.

Why would a God that is omnipotent not be able to destroy something like Satan?

He could if He wanted to, but if He did then what would humanity have to compare him against? Everyone would be Christian, but since there is no sin they really aren't, because they didn't have a choice to turn away-or turn toward-God.

Why wouldn't he be able to see the outcomes of his creations, like Eve eating the apple?

Who says He didn't?

Why does he not reveal himself?

Has He not already? Look at the earth, the stars, the plants, animals, humans. These are miracles in itself. And look at the miracles He did in the Bible, through Jesus, the prophets. Look at the miracles He does today. People being healed for no apparent reason, breakthroughs in science, industry, and politics. The millions converted to Christianity, how the faith has prevailed for thousands of years. Is this not proof enough?

If God paraded through the streets levelling cities, healing masses, and transforming the world would you believe then? Does He have to prove Himself every few hundred years with a fireworks show? Should He, who has provided everything for us, have to prove Himself? Hasn't He given enough to us?

What need does a God have for faith, and why are those who don't have faith in him punished?

God doesn't need anything. But He wanted to create a race to love Him and for Him to love. If He struck down every living person who didn't believe in Him then what would our faith be worth? Everyone would "love" Him purely out of fear.

Why would a being that loves us let us suffer for no reason?

If you are a teen and you get in a car accident, is it your parent's fault? Of course not. They love you and don't want anything to happen to you. Same with God. He created you and loves you, despite being born in sin and turning from Him, you, and every human, are still His child and He loves you as such. If He spared you from every pain, would you love Him more? You would be living a life where everything you wanted was given to you. You would have no need for Him. He doesn't want bad things to happen to you, but He's not going to prevent it either. Satan on the other hand wants to destroy you and turn you to sin.

[quote]Can you, just for once, not act as though Christianity is a fact? I don't claim that evolution and the big bang is an absolute fact. I back them up, but I am willing to acknowledge that they have flaws and may not be right[/quote] But there [i]are[/i] no flaws in Christianity. \r\n[quote]Again...stuck in the Creationist viewpoint. It doesn't have to be created by something to exist[/quote]\r\nSo if a hamburger just appeared out of nowhere and landed in your lap you would be fine with it?\r\n[quote]The universe is actually an interesting term. Technically, it's nothingness except for the contents that were released from the big bang, so it didn't need to be created since it doesn't really exist.[/quote]\r\nOk, what created the [i]concept[/i] of the universe and more specifically, its contents?\r\n[quote]The materials from the big bang.[/quote] So if I get paper and a pen and lay them on a table for millions of years I'll come back to an encyclopedia on the table?\r\n[quote]Objects like dust forming around larger objects that created gravity and pulled in more materials and grew from that.[/quote] How did the dust get there?\r\n[quote]How was God created?[/quote] He always was in existence and always will be. He is limitless. \r\n[quote]Why would a God that is omnipotent not be able to destroy something like Satan?[/quote] He could if He wanted to, but if He did then what would humanity have to compare him against? Everyone would be Christian, but since there is no sin they really aren't, because they didn't have a [i]choice[/i] to turn away-or turn toward-God.\r\n[quote]Why wouldn't he be able to see the outcomes of his creations, like Eve eating the apple?[/quote] Who says He didn't?\r\n[quote]Why does he not reveal himself?[/quote] Has He not already? Look at the earth, the stars, the plants, animals, humans. These are miracles in itself. And look at the miracles He did in the Bible, through Jesus, the prophets. Look at the miracles He does today. People being healed for no apparent reason, breakthroughs in science, industry, and politics. The millions converted to Christianity, how the faith has prevailed for thousands of years. Is this not proof enough?\r\n\r\nIf God paraded through the streets levelling cities, healing masses, and transforming the world would you believe then? Does He have to prove Himself every few hundred years with a fireworks show? Should He, who has provided everything for us, have to prove Himself? Hasn't He given enough to us?\r\n[quote]What need does a God have for faith, and why are those who don't have faith in him punished? [/quote] God doesn't need anything. But He wanted to create a race to love Him and for Him to love. If He struck down every living person who didn't believe in Him then what would our faith be worth? Everyone would "love" Him purely out of fear.\r\n[quote]Why would a being that loves us let us suffer for no reason?[/quote] If you are a teen and you get in a car accident, is it your parent's fault? Of course not. They love you and don't want anything to happen to you. Same with God. He created you and loves you, despite being born in sin and turning from Him, you, and every human, are still His child and He loves you as such. If He spared you from every pain, would you love Him more? You would be living a life where everything you wanted was given to you. You would have no need for Him. He doesn't want bad things to happen to you, but He's not going to prevent it either. Satan on the other hand wants to destroy you and turn you to sin.

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Highfire

3,025 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 4:26pm UTC

ok this is plain and simple to contradict everything u said at the beginning on page 1

Life can easily make life, as life isn't life, this is how I explain

You call life an organic, moving, eating/drinking, reproducing and the like thing, but if you made a machine with metal, that learns from it's surroundings then comes into it's own, how is that 'not' life? because it simply is, humans are just an organic form of the terminator, more fragile, more emotional, and much different from eachother, so to make 2 different robots and raising them differently, then they come into their own is simply to say that you have 2 babies, beat and punish one, then play and entertain the other, simple

But the reason of all that is that life is simply a machine, a big cog-and-dynamite machine, dynamite as in sabotage, as in metoers and the like, but I rest my case with that.

Another thing - God? where is the proof that he is real? you can't say where is the proof he isn't? Because then you can simply say "He killed my father!", if he has no proof he didn't, he's sentenced to death? or punishment? NO! He is Innocent until Proven Guilty, it was the other way round hundreds of years ago, so really you're being a primitive, blind people just for saying he is real...

And I do appreciate your effort in trying to prove he is real using logic and such, but he isn't as far as I know, while he could be, I highly doubt it - I will welcome it if I die and I see him, but I definately won't while I'm alive - yet.

But tbh I still agree with Evolution - the point that u all rely on the big bang doesn't always make sense - there are other theories, so even if this one isn't real, there's still 2, even more that you can try to prove...

Oh, another thing, this is simple too, what makes humankind better than beasts? we done wars, bloodshed, decimation, do we even have the right to survive? I say that for most ppl we don't, I personally think only some should, but what can society do for the whole? Industrialisation? Nothing probably, I say we all go back to the forests

And... one more thing... Adam and Eve, if they had babies then who would have babies then? brothers and sisters? you're quite literally supporting that, and scientifically proven that a child made by a brother and sister would be handicapped most of the time, so... I think I proven my point, then again logic isn't what u guys use - Watch Stargate, Mythology and Religion is quite good in there, I think u guys should watch it

- H

P.S I wasn't flaming, I can be much worse

ok this is plain and simple to contradict everything u said at the beginning on page 1\r\n\r\nLife can easily make life, as life isn't life, this is how I explain\r\n\r\nYou call life an organic, moving, eating/drinking, reproducing and the like thing, but if you made a machine with metal, that learns from it's surroundings then comes into it's own, how is that 'not' life? because it simply is, humans are just an organic form of the terminator, more fragile, more emotional, and much different from eachother, so to make 2 different robots and raising them differently, then they come into their own is simply to say that you have 2 babies, beat and punish one, then play and entertain the other, simple\r\n\r\nBut the reason of all that is that life is simply a machine, a big cog-and-dynamite machine, dynamite as in sabotage, as in metoers and the like, but I rest my case with that.\r\n\r\nAnother thing - God? where is the proof that he is real? you can't say where is the proof he isn't? Because then you can simply say "He killed my father!", if he has no proof he didn't, he's sentenced to death? or punishment? NO! He is Innocent until Proven Guilty, it was the other way round hundreds of years ago, so really you're being a primitive, blind people just for saying he is real...\r\n\r\nAnd I do appreciate your effort in trying to prove he is real using logic and such, but he isn't as far as I know, while he could be, I highly doubt it - I will welcome it if I die and I see him, but I definately won't while I'm alive - yet.\r\n\r\nBut tbh I still agree with Evolution - the point that u all rely on the big bang doesn't always make sense - there are other theories, so even if this one isn't real, there's still 2, even more that you can try to prove...\r\n\r\nOh, another thing, this is simple too, what makes humankind better than beasts? we done wars, bloodshed, decimation, do we even have the right to survive? I say that for most ppl we don't, I personally think only some should, but what can society do for the whole? Industrialisation? Nothing probably, I say we all go back to the forests :)\r\n\r\nAnd... one more thing... Adam and Eve, if they had babies then who would have babies then? brothers and sisters? you're quite literally supporting that, and scientifically proven that a child made by a brother and sister would be handicapped most of the time, so... I think I proven my point, then again logic isn't what u guys use - Watch Stargate, Mythology and Religion is quite good in there, I think u guys should watch it :)\r\n\r\n - H\r\n\r\nP.S I wasn't flaming, I can be much worse :D

offline

Kody

60 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 4:38pm UTC

but if you made a machine with metal, that learns from it's surroundings then comes into it's own, how is that 'not' life?

One of the criteria for life is that life must reproduce. So your point is null.
And, no offence, but the rest of your argument doesn't make much sense...

offline

TSL3_needed

5,579 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 5:15pm UTC

But there are no flaws in Christianity.

Wow. Just. . . wow. *Facepalm* That statement is fail.

So if a hamburger just appeared out of nowhere and landed in your lap you would be fine with it?

Besides freaked out, yes I would. It would be awesome

Ok, what created the concept of the universe and more specifically, its contents?

Humans created the concept of the universe. God created the big bang, which in turn, created every piece of matter in the universe.

So if I get paper and a pen and lay them on a table for millions of years I'll come back to an encyclopedia on the table?

No. Atoms do not reproduce in that context. Atoms don't reproduce at all, for that matter. They have always been, and always will be. Until we throw them around at the speed of light and have them crash into each other. Then they split into quarks, protons, neutrons, electrons, and ions.

He always was in existence and always will be. He is limitless.

Something cannot just exist. You're being a hypocrite.

How did the dust get there?

Big bang.

He could if He wanted to, but if He did then what would humanity have to compare him against? Everyone would be Christian, but since there is no sin they really aren't, because they didn't have a choice to turn away-or turn toward-God.

That sounds like an excuse to something to which you have no idea. Satan is just as almighty as God is, if God cannot destroy him. They rage an ever lasting battle, as I'm sure you would know seeing as you say you read the bible. They constantly wish to destroy each other, but can't.

If God paraded through the streets levelling cities, healing masses, and transforming the world would you believe then? Does He have to prove Himself every few hundred years with a fireworks show? Should He, who has provided everything for us, have to prove Himself? Hasn't He given enough to us?

Ya, I would. Except it'll never happen. God is simply passive. He does nothing but correct us when we stray off the path of evolution.

Has He not already? Look at the earth, the stars, the plants, animals, humans. These are miracles in itself. And look at the miracles He did in the Bible, through Jesus, the prophets. Look at the miracles He does today. People being healed for no apparent reason, breakthroughs in science, industry, and politics. The millions converted to Christianity, how the faith has prevailed for thousands of years. Is this not proof enough?

No, it isn't. Faith is just that: Faith. A belief. People need something to believe in to get past points in their lives. God is a perfect solution. As for being healed, I assume you've never heard of white blood cells and your lymph nodes? I didn't think so.

Drugs or Jesus. My favorite quote.

God doesn't need anything. But He wanted to create a race to love Him and for Him to love. If He struck down every living person who didn't believe in Him then what would our faith be worth? Everyone would "love" Him purely out of fear.

If God created humans to love him, then why does half the world hate him? If God created humans, then why did he create atheists? Explain that.

If you are a teen and you get in a car accident, is it your parent's fault? Of course not. They love you and don't want anything to happen to you. Same with God. He created you and loves you, despite being born in sin and turning from Him, you, and every human, are still His child and He loves you as such. If He spared you from every pain, would you love Him more? You would be living a life where everything you wanted was given to you. You would have no need for Him. He doesn't want bad things to happen to you, but He's not going to prevent it either. Satan on the other hand wants to destroy you and turn you to sin.

Straight from scripture, I assume. You say you know that he exists, yet you do not explain why you know. You cannot know something exists. You can only assume it exists, until you have seen him/her/it for yourself, first hand.

I just shot down you entire argument in flames :P

[quote]But there are no flaws in Christianity. [/quote]\r\n\r\nWow. Just. . . wow. *Facepalm* That statement is fail.\r\n\r\n[quote]So if a hamburger just appeared out of nowhere and landed in your lap you would be fine with it? [/quote]\r\n\r\nBesides freaked out, yes I would. It would be awesome :D\r\n\r\n[quote]Ok, what created the concept of the universe and more specifically, its contents? [/quote]\r\n\r\nHumans created the concept of the universe. God created the big bang, which in turn, created every piece of matter in the universe.\r\n\r\n[quote]So if I get paper and a pen and lay them on a table for millions of years I'll come back to an encyclopedia on the table? [/quote]\r\n\r\nNo. Atoms do not reproduce in that context. Atoms don't reproduce at all, for that matter. They have always been, and always will be. Until we throw them around at the speed of light and have them crash into each other. Then they split into quarks, protons, neutrons, electrons, and ions.\r\n\r\n[quote]He always was in existence and always will be. He is limitless. [/quote]\r\n\r\nSomething cannot just exist. You're being a hypocrite.\r\n\r\n[quote]How did the dust get there? [/quote]\r\n\r\nBig bang.\r\n\r\n[quote]He could if He wanted to, but if He did then what would humanity have to compare him against? Everyone would be Christian, but since there is no sin they really aren't, because they didn't have a choice to turn away-or turn toward-God. [/quote]\r\n\r\nThat sounds like an excuse to something to which you have no idea. Satan is just as almighty as God is, if God cannot destroy him. They rage an ever lasting battle, as I'm sure you would know seeing as you say you read the bible. They constantly wish to destroy each other, but can't.\r\n\r\n[quote]If God paraded through the streets levelling cities, healing masses, and transforming the world would you believe then? Does He have to prove Himself every few hundred years with a fireworks show? Should He, who has provided everything for us, have to prove Himself? Hasn't He given enough to us? [/quote]\r\n\r\nYa, I would. Except it'll never happen. God is simply passive. He does nothing but correct us when we stray off the path of evolution.\r\n\r\n[quote]Has He not already? Look at the earth, the stars, the plants, animals, humans. These are miracles in itself. And look at the miracles He did in the Bible, through Jesus, the prophets. Look at the miracles He does today. People being healed for no apparent reason, breakthroughs in science, industry, and politics. The millions converted to Christianity, how the faith has prevailed for thousands of years. Is this not proof enough?[/quote]\r\n\r\nNo, it isn't. Faith is just that: Faith. A belief. People need something to believe in to get past points in their lives. God is a perfect solution. As for being healed, I assume you've never heard of white blood cells and your lymph nodes? I didn't think so.\r\n\r\nDrugs or Jesus. My favorite quote.\r\n\r\n[quote]God doesn't need anything. But He wanted to create a race to love Him and for Him to love. If He struck down every living person who didn't believe in Him then what would our faith be worth? Everyone would "love" Him purely out of fear. [/quote]\r\n\r\nIf God created humans to love him, then why does half the world hate him? If God created humans, then why did he create atheists? Explain that.\r\n\r\n[quote]If you are a teen and you get in a car accident, is it your parent's fault? Of course not. They love you and don't want anything to happen to you. Same with God. He created you and loves you, despite being born in sin and turning from Him, you, and every human, are still His child and He loves you as such. If He spared you from every pain, would you love Him more? You would be living a life where everything you wanted was given to you. You would have no need for Him. He doesn't want bad things to happen to you, but He's not going to prevent it either. Satan on the other hand wants to destroy you and turn you to sin.[/quote]\r\n\r\nStraight from scripture, I assume. You say you know that he exists, yet you do not explain why you know. You cannot know something exists. You can only assume it exists, until you have seen him/her/it for yourself, first hand.\r\n\r\nI just shot down you entire argument in flames :P

offline

rafterman

600 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 7:41pm UTC

Who wrote all those stories so accurately without ever having seen or heard God?

Accurately? The bible(and other religious texts) is the only source (that I know of) that mentions those events, if what the bible says happened really did happen there would be other records of it.

I honestly can't understand why people are debating this, there are other fairy tales, what makes this one so special. Unless disproving evolution(and all those other science theories) proves creationism(and all those other religious things) then there is no reason to believe any religious thing posted here, the &quotroof" behind it all is purely belief.

offline

St1cKyH4nd

114 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 9:30pm UTC

few reasons god is not real...

first well you have no solid proof he is there or he is not, so proof or gtfo
second the universe, (in my opinion) is eternal going through the big bang and the big crush over and over and over forever, because of dark matter and energy, i took astronomy so i know a few things, next if god made all things that means he controls all things there are billions of other galaxys with billions of other solar systems not even god himself and watch everyone, god was made my dumb people back then to explain things, why should this god even be the right god, why not, roman gods or greek but we say that is all wrong this religion will fade like all others because religion is a lie

offline

St1cKyH4nd

114 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 9:32pm UTC

also challenge me , or ask me something i can prove you wrong, like how is it possible for all the matter in the universe to compress into something smaller than a fourth of an atom , one word ENERGY so much of it can do anything

offline

ProGenesis

18 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '09 11:50pm UTC

In response to St1cKyH4nd:

first well you have no solid proof he is there or he is not, so proof or gtfo

If there was solid proof that God existed, that would invalidate the Bible. The Bible emphasizes the need for and the importance of faith. If there were proof, we wouldn't need faith. However, does that mean we take it on blind faith? Not at all. Did the Gospel writers believe their religion because they had absurd amounts of superstition and faith? Not at all. They believed it because they had encountered Jesus after he had died, and they had seen the empty tomb.

second the universe, (in my opinion) is eternal going through the big bang and the big crush over and over and over forever, because of dark matter and energy, i took astronomy so i know a few things, next if god made all things that means he controls all things there are billions of other galaxys with billions of other solar systems not even god himself and watch everyone, god was made my dumb people back then to explain things, why should this god even be the right god, why not, roman gods or greek but we say that is all wrong this religion will fade like all others because religion is a lie

I personally don't know a ton about astronomy, but I have heard about a few deadly problems for your Oscillating Universe theory.

First of all, apparently the universe isn't dense enough for it to contract into a big crunch/crush.

Second of all, the rate at which the universe is expanding is accelerating, not decelerating.

Third of all, apparently even if physics would allow this type of thing, due to entropy, each expansion would be larger and larger before the crunch. If you wind that backwards it gets smaller and smaller and eventually to a beginning.

There's also another, easier to understand problem with the universe being infinitely old. If time has always existed, how did we get to now? If time has always been going, shouldn't right now, this moment, have happened an infinite amount of time ago? When one ardently maintains the view that time is infinite and tries to explain how it's possible, one begins to sound very religious.

Those 'dumb people' back then weren't quite as dumb as people tend to think. Greeks were advanced mathematically, Mayans astronomologically (eh.. or something), Israelites had advanced hygiene and law systems, Egyptians had impressive building skills, and so on. These stupid people might not have been so stupid. They clearly didn't pass time throwing rocks at each other and picking their noses.

Also, Christianity doesn't exactly attempt to explain very many mysterious phenomenon. I don't recall many "..and that is why it rains" or "..which is why stars only come out at night" or anything like that. The only biblical event that really even begins to resemble such is God using the rainbow as a promise to Noah.

Christianity is more about a fairly literal and consistent history starting from the beginning but extending into recorded or evidenced events not 4,000 years ago. I'm not exactly sure how pagan mythology works, but the Bible gives ages, names, relatives, family lines, recorded numbers of people, dates, and other rather specific information.

Now.. you wanted someone to challenge your beliefs and ask you questions, correct? Alright.

Why did thousands of Jews convert to Christianity within 20 years of Christ's death at the cost of being rejected from their society and family?
Who was Jesus?
Jesus, according to the Gospels(which are at the very least generally reliable, early, biographies of Jesus), claimed to be God (even extra-biblical sources recorded that early Christians sang worship to Jesus "as to a God&quot. Was he telling the truth? If not, did he think he was?
Why did people who said they saw the risen Jesus die for that belief if they were lying? If they weren't lying, how were so many people having the same hallucination?
Why was Jesus' tomb empty?

I may have gotten carried away. You can respond to just a couple and we'll talk about them for a while, then the next few, then the next.

In response to St1cKyH4nd:\r\n\r\n[quote]first well you have no solid proof he is there or he is not, so proof or gtfo[/quote]\r\n\r\nIf there was solid proof that God existed, that would invalidate the Bible. The Bible emphasizes the need for and the importance of faith. If there were proof, we wouldn't need faith. However, does that mean we take it on  blind faith? Not at all. Did the Gospel writers believe their religion because they had absurd amounts of superstition and faith? Not at all. They believed it because they had encountered Jesus after he had died, and they had seen the empty tomb.\r\n\r\n[quote]second the universe, (in my opinion) is eternal going through the big bang and the big crush over and over and over forever, because of dark matter and energy, i took astronomy so i know a few things, next if god made all things that means he controls all things there are billions of other galaxys with billions of other solar systems not even god himself and watch everyone, god was made my dumb people back then to explain things, why should this god even be the right god, why not, roman gods or greek but we say that is all wrong this religion will fade like all others because religion is a lie[/quote]\r\n\r\nI personally don't know a ton about astronomy, but I have heard about a few deadly problems for your Oscillating Universe theory.\r\n\r\nFirst of all, apparently the universe isn't dense enough for it to contract into a big crunch/crush.\r\n\r\nSecond of all, the rate at which the universe is expanding is accelerating, not decelerating.\r\n\r\nThird of all, apparently even if physics would allow this type of thing, due to entropy, each expansion would be larger and larger before the crunch. If you wind that backwards it gets smaller and smaller and eventually to a beginning.\r\n\r\nThere's also another, easier to understand problem with the universe being infinitely old. If time has always existed, how did we get to now? If time has always been going, shouldn't right now, this moment, have happened an infinite amount of time ago? When one ardently maintains the view that time is infinite and tries to explain how it's possible, one begins to sound very religious.\r\n\r\nThose 'dumb people' back then weren't quite as dumb as people tend to think. Greeks were advanced mathematically, Mayans astronomologically (eh.. or something), Israelites had advanced hygiene and law systems, Egyptians had impressive building skills, and so on. These stupid people might not have been so stupid. They clearly didn't pass time throwing rocks at each other and picking their noses.\r\n\r\nAlso, Christianity doesn't exactly attempt to explain very many mysterious phenomenon. I don't recall many "..and that is why it rains" or "..which is why stars only come out at night" or anything like that. The only biblical event that really even begins to resemble such is God using the rainbow as a promise to Noah.\r\n\r\nChristianity is more about a fairly literal and consistent history starting from the beginning but extending into recorded or evidenced events not 4,000 years ago. I'm not exactly sure how pagan mythology works, but the Bible gives ages, names, relatives, family lines, recorded numbers of people, dates, and other rather specific information.\r\n\r\nNow.. you wanted someone to challenge your beliefs and ask you questions, correct? Alright.\r\n\r\nWhy did thousands of Jews convert to Christianity within 20 years of Christ's death at the cost of being rejected from their society and family?\r\nWho was Jesus?\r\nJesus, according to the Gospels(which are at the very least generally reliable, early, biographies of Jesus), claimed to be God (even extra-biblical sources recorded that early Christians sang worship to Jesus "as to a God"). Was he telling the truth? If not, did he think he was?\r\nWhy did people who said they saw the risen Jesus die for that belief if they were lying? If they weren't lying, how were so many people having the same hallucination?\r\nWhy was Jesus' tomb empty?\r\n\r\nI may have gotten carried away. You can respond to just a couple and we'll talk about them for a while, then the next few, then the next.

offline

Mike412

332 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '09 12:28am UTC

First of all, apparently the universe isn't dense enough for it to contract into a big crunch/crush.

Second of all, the rate at which the universe is expanding is accelerating, not decelerating.

If the theory about the big bang/crunch is correct, we may have to think of space differently than we do. Already its hard to comprehend nothingness everywhere, if a place even exists when it has sheer nothingness. Perhaps the universe really does have defined boarders, and its impossible for planets and matter to spread beyond that, and when things reach the outer limit and can go no further, they begin to get pulled by in by the gravity of other objects. Its just a random theory I came up with a few seconds ago and has an almost 100% chance of being incorrect, but our knowledge of the universe is so limited right now that maybe it is possible.

If you wind that backwards it gets smaller and smaller and eventually to a beginning.

That's where all theory's, even God, have a problem. People claim he's always existed, but by our current knowledge of time that's impossible. Everything has to have a beginning, and no one can provide an reasonable theory for how that might have happened.

When one ardently maintains the view that time is infinite and tries to explain how it's possible, one begins to sound very religious.

Perhaps, time on an universal scale time isn't really happening. The only reason exists is because we judge there to be time, and yet this moment is really no different than any before it. All we have to go on are memories, but according to your statements earlier about how if evolution is correct than our brains may be wired wrong those memories may or may not have happened. Which would of course mean evolution never happened, or anything else, we just popped into existence for the moment we can judge right now. There may be no such thing as time elsewhere in the universe, or maybe time is some form of spiral, which would again present the problem of how did it start. Infinite time would be possible, but it would require thinking differently about how time really happens.

Why did thousands of Jews convert to Christianity within 20 years of Christ's death at the cost of being rejected from their society and family?
Who was Jesus?
Jesus, according to the Gospels(which are at the very least generally reliable, early, biographies of Jesus), claimed to be God (even extra-biblical sources recorded that early Christians sang worship to Jesus "as to a God&quot. Was he telling the truth? If not, did he think he was?
Why did people who said they saw the risen Jesus die for that belief if they were lying? If they weren't lying, how were so many people having the same hallucination?
Why was Jesus' tomb empty?

This is only a factor if you believe the bible as a fact. I think that's the #1 barrier between religions. Each side views itself as though its correct, so they use that as facts in arguments. Perhaps the Bible is merely the worlds first great work of fiction, and people placed belief in it for some reason. I'm not saying this happened, I'm just saying its a possibility we have to consider. Think of today's Star Trek fans. Many of them are fanatics, and if they believe Star Trek to be real, and raise their children to believe in Star Trek and so on and so on, eventually a mass following like Christianity would arise. Again, I don't mean to insult Christianity, I'm just saying that we can't accept the Bible as an absolute fact.

[quote]First of all, apparently the universe isn't dense enough for it to contract into a big crunch/crush.\r\n\r\nSecond of all, the rate at which the universe is expanding is accelerating, not decelerating.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIf the theory about the big bang/crunch is correct, we may have to think of space differently than we do. Already its hard to comprehend nothingness everywhere, if a place even exists when it has sheer nothingness. Perhaps the universe really does have defined boarders, and its impossible for planets and matter to spread beyond that, and when things reach the outer limit and can go no further, they begin to get pulled by in by the gravity of other objects. Its just a random theory I came up with a few seconds ago and has an almost 100% chance of being incorrect, but our knowledge of the universe is so limited right now that maybe it is possible. \r\n\r\n[quote]If you wind that backwards it gets smaller and smaller and eventually to a beginning.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThat's where all theory's, even God, have a problem. People claim he's always existed, but by our current knowledge of time that's impossible. Everything has to have a beginning, and no one can provide an reasonable theory for how that might have happened.\r\n\r\n[quote]When one ardently maintains the view that time is infinite and tries to explain how it's possible, one begins to sound very religious.[/quote]\r\n\r\nPerhaps, time on an universal scale time isn't really happening. The only reason exists is because we judge there to be time, and yet this moment is really no different than any before it. All we have to go on are memories, but according to your statements earlier about how if evolution is correct than our brains may be wired wrong those memories may or may not have happened. Which would of course mean evolution never happened, or anything else, we just popped into existence for the moment we can judge right now. There may be no such thing as time elsewhere in the universe, or maybe time is some form of spiral, which would again present the problem of how did it start. Infinite time would be possible, but it would require thinking differently about how time really happens.\r\n\r\n[quote]Why did thousands of Jews convert to Christianity within 20 years of Christ's death at the cost of being rejected from their society and family?\r\nWho was Jesus?\r\nJesus, according to the Gospels(which are at the very least generally reliable, early, biographies of Jesus), claimed to be God (even extra-biblical sources recorded that early Christians sang worship to Jesus "as to a God"). Was he telling the truth? If not, did he think he was?\r\nWhy did people who said they saw the risen Jesus die for that belief if they were lying? If they weren't lying, how were so many people having the same hallucination?\r\nWhy was Jesus' tomb empty?[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis is only a factor if you believe the bible as a fact. I think that's the #1 barrier between religions. Each side views itself as though its correct, so they use that as facts in arguments. Perhaps the Bible is merely the worlds first great work of fiction, and people placed belief in it for some reason. I'm not saying this happened, I'm just saying its a possibility we have to consider. Think of today's Star Trek fans. Many of them are fanatics, and if they believe Star Trek to be real, and raise their children to believe in Star Trek and so on and so on, eventually a mass following like Christianity would arise. Again, I don't mean to insult Christianity, I'm just saying that we can't accept the Bible as an absolute fact.

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