well i have found that some people who dont beileve in god think there cant be a god becase (man i cant spell)of all the bad things that happen and some of the people who do belive in god only give him blame for good things notice i said some of the people not all of them im just asking if anyone has noticed this other than me
People blame God for good things rather than bad things because they don't want to be smited. They credit old Beelzebub for the unfortunate events so they'll have someone to blame it on who is associated with "bad things" and is also a powerful being.
But if God is almighty and omniscient, then he should be able to stop Satan, right? A little saying I keep close. Is god willing but not able? Then he's not omniscient Is god able but not willing? Then he is malevolent Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither willing nor able? Then why call him god?
Agnostic speaking here. Basically, that little...rhetoric is covering all the things Christians might say to defend god, and crushing them. *yawn* TSL and Moat(I decided to be nice this time) were right! Debating is fun!
That saying is called the problem of evil, a logical argument against the existence of God. I do think you got part of it mixed up, though.
Is god willing but not able? Then he's not omniscient
Actually, that would mean he's not omnipotent. Omniscience means he knows all things. Also keep note that the word omnipotence is never used in the bible, and the definition we've given it makes it self-contradictory and impossible. According to the current definition, something omnipotent cannot exist. An omnipotent being should be able to create something he can't lift or make oatmeal so hot he can't eat it, etc., but if he could, then he wouldn't be omnipotent. Does this prove that an omnipotent being can't exist? More likely it means we haven't been specific enough with the definition, and we've excluded logic from the definition. But I digress.
The Problem of Evil argument doesn't actually crush everything Christians might say to defend God. The correct, biblical God is option 3- A God who is capable of doing away with evil and wants to. Does this mean such a God wouldn't let evil exist? No.
First of all, why evil exists. Evil exists because of free will. God granted humans free will because without it there could not be genuine love. Like a barbie with a pull string, 'I love you, God!' We would have no choice, and hence it would not be true love. Free will is the reason we can experience love and why evil exists.
Second of all, God will do away with evil. Eventually, when Christ returns, God will do away with evil, and pain, and death. God postpones this because when evil is done away with everyone will be judged. God is waiting for more people to come to him.
Third of all, God can bring good out of evil. God has the amazing ability to bring good things out of evil. The most glorious example of this is the cross. The worst thing that has ever happened, the death of God on the cross, led to the best thing that has ever happened, the resurrection of God and the opening of Heaven to all people who accept it. When we think that nothing good could come of something, we underestimate God's creativity.
First of all, why evil exists. Evil exists because of free will. God granted humans free will because without it there could not be genuine love. Like a barbie with a pull string, 'I love you, God!' We would have no choice, and hence it would not be true love. Free will is the reason we can experience love and why evil exists.
Second of all, God will do away with evil. Eventually, when Christ returns, God will do away with evil, and pain, and death. God postpones this because when evil is done away with everyone will be judged. God is waiting for more people to come to him.
Third of all, God can bring good out of evil. God has the amazing ability to bring good things out of evil. The most glorious example of this is the cross. The worst thing that has ever happened, the death of God on the cross, led to the best thing that has ever happened, the resurrection of God and the opening of Heaven to all people who accept it. When we think that nothing good could come of something, we underestimate God's creativity.
That first paragraph, I can agree with. The second and third...not so much. Christ is not the son of God. God does not exist. Jesus Christ existed, but he was just a normal human being who could play tricks and was crucified. He's been dead for a long, long time. He's not coming back to life. I agree that the crucifix is a horrible thing. I mean, having your hands and feet nailed to something, and then left there? Why would God need resurrecting? I thought that according to the Bible, he was all-powerful and has always been, existing outside of time. Therefore, supposedly he can't be killed. Therefore, he wouldn't need resurrection even if he existed(which he doesn't). I never said nothing good could come out of something. For example, Joseph Stalin killed millions of people. But at the same time, he doubled Russia's economy. But in this case, the crucifying of Jesus Christ was a bad thing; it caused none of the things you say it did. There is no Heaven, therefore his death was pointless in the way you paint it. The only good thing that came of it was a few superstitious people slept sounder, he was painted as a martyr and remembered centuries later, and oh yeah, people think he's the son of God. I'd be glad to debate with you some more, if you want.
i don't belive in god. i think that a god never allows things like suicide, the Holocaust, and other. i see poor people that die becuase haven't water or food, and i see bishops and cardinals whit gold rings that don't live in poverty for help others. i see paedophile priests and pope that forgive them. i see cardinals that say "the Holocaust never happened". i think that the bible is just a fable book for give answer at question that we can't give, like "why we are born?" i'm talking about catholic religion because i live in a catholic society and i don't know about other religion. it's just my thought, but i don't invented anything
god brings out good intent. good intent is opinionated and does not equal good.
for ex. a murderer kills his wife and feels it is just. he has ridden the world of his wife's supposed evil.
same goes for small animals. you step on a cockroach and kill it. you have bettered yourself but in order to do so you must degrade another's.
good and evil are ONLY perspectives. you ever think Darth Vader hadda good plan? it was running smoothly until these rebels came and destroyed all he worked for.
none actually know what good is. you base it off seeing other's good doings.
good and evil are ONLY perspectives. you ever think Darth Vader hadda good plan? it was running smoothly until these rebels came and destroyed all he worked for.
lol nice analogy :P
and I think you are right that evil and good are perspectives, but in general the public all has the same perspective depending on where they live. For example, in the USA we believe (in general) that we are good. However radical places in the middle east believe that the USA is evil. So yeah, all points of view but the same in the place you're in
Yeah, I agree with Lietenut and Graham, there are no wrong perspectives or wrong opinions, it's just that people who are considered more important are considered to have the right opinion and the right perspective.
When making an argument from contradictory theology (which is what I call it) one assumes that what the Bible says is true in order to prove that it isn't. For example, when I was explaining why God would allow evil, the explanations only make sense if God exists. That's because I was showing that if God exists that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be evil. Your argument was as follows, summarized: "God doesn't exist, because if he did, evil wouldn't." I merely showed how that statement is theologically incorrect. If God existed, that doesn't mean evil wouldn't.
The debate over who Jesus was and what he did is too in-depth to do justice in a short response, but I'd be glad to debate it in a separate thread.
When God manifested himself in human form as Christ, he purposefully limited himself. The only reason he could be killed was because he allowed himself to be.
Here is when I went back to this response.
As I hope I have clarified, the existence of evil is not evidence against God, and certainly does not prove he doesn't exist. In fact, I would argue that evil is evidence of God. How do you, an atheist, define such terms as good and evil? If God doesn't exist, it's merely your opinion. If God doesn't exist, there are no absolute morals, and you can't truly say, 'Child molestation is wrong,' you could only say, 'I don't like child molestation." It would be as abstract as 'Pizza tastes good."
In response to Graham:
This belief and view of good/evil is consistent with atheism and other religions that do not have an ultimate foundation for good and evil, but it is not consistent with Christianity. In Christianity God is the defining foundation for what is good or evil- the opinions of man do no matter. Without a foundation for good and evil it really would all be perspective and opinion. Which reminds me of a good point. At this point I went back to my response to Jessikar
Exactly. I agree with Graham, Whimsy, and Lt. Pretty much, the "right" perspective is told by whoever's left standing. For example, the Civil War. Everyone knows slavery is wrong now, but if the Confederates had won, I bet they'd be singing a different song. Or killing a bug. The human would say they rid the world of a pest. The bug, if it survived, said it was unjustly assaulted by a giant who tried to kill it. You get my gist.
