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DrCool1
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DrCool1
210 posts
Bard

Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.

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samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

My point is that logic is objective, but can yield more than one logical conclusion to the same problem, and people's perspectives can affect which logical conclusion they elect to act on.


How the hel* would that work?

Oh whatever; were both right in our own ways. Agree to disagree.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

How the hel* would that work?


Quite well :P

Basically, logic is objective, but logic can yield more than one conclusion to a given problem, and people don't necessarily have to choose the same logical conclusion.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Actually wolf just answered that in saying that our emotions are from God. So we have a godlike emotion not the other way around.


If this is the case then it completely destroys the possibility of a perfect all loving God.

Do you have scripture to back this up? If not I'm going to have to assume that your just basing this off what others have said (not that I'm blaming you).


Disobey God, don't say your sorry, go to hell, Isn't that how you claim it works? If I'm wrong tell he how does it work then?

As for scripture it turned out surprisingly tricky to find something that connected disobey God with eternal torture but...

KJV
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

and to just be sure of wording here's the NIV's wording of this passage.

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Mostly it seemed to indirectly indicate this suggesting not obeying God=doing bad things=hell.

To me the Bible is clear and makes perfect since to me, now. When I was in my rebellious years, the Bible always contradicted itself.


Just one example:
It's saying not to kill then goes on giving a whole list of people to kill and why. This is a contradiction. That's what's there. Saying there is no contradictions is just simply ignoring the facts.
Asherlee
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Asherlee
5,001 posts
Shepherd

Regardless of "where you are in life" the Bible is forevermore contradicting. As I am not Christian, or even religious for that matter, I don't feel that a book of parables should be taken for anything more or less than what it is.

wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

Just one example:
It's saying not to kill then goes on giving a whole list of people to kill and why. This is a contradiction. That's what's there. Saying there is no contradictions is just simply ignoring the facts.


You do know that you've repeated yourself?
You want a short two or three worded sentence to explain the complexities of the judgment(s) of God?


If you disobey God, you have sinned and sin=death: ...so,

I am not to commit murder.
I am not to break any of God's commandments.
I am to obey God
I am to obey all government laws, pay taxes, etc.
If I lead someone else astray, I have sinned.

The first death is spiritual and the second death is the sleep you don't wake up from.
I'm saying it this way so that there isn't any misunderstanding. If you read a passage like this in the book of Isaiah or, Revelation, you'll know that I told you the truth.

KJV
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



Paul is writing to the Church in Thessalonica, giving them encouragement because of the persecutions and trials they've been enduring, (at the hands of the Romans), because of their faith. So let me back up to verse 5, so nothing is taken out of context.

5) All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

6) God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7) and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with His powerful angels.
8) He will punish those who do not know God...

I add also, because I learned this one a long time ago.
Philippians 3:18-19
...many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
19) Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.


I do no want to mislead anyone, Mage. We are just talking here.

You want black and white answers, ok, God is all powerful, all knowing God. Jesus Christ holds the keys to heaven and hell.

There's another point to all of this too that I need to say openly, I will be judged for any misunderstanding I may cause by misquoting the Bible, misrepresenting God, etc.
That's what I meant above when I was listing, some of the dos and don'ts.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power


Context! Yay!

The way it sounds the Thessalonian was being harassed by others and Paul was giving them hope by promising that in the end God will give justice to all those that deserve it. Also if you look at the verse it also says "know our God" before obey our God which may indicate a higher importance on this part of the verse than the other.

@Alt shhhh =P
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

Regardless of importance of knowing or obey the fact remains that the bible is saying: "Look you beeter be good or you get to go to a nice warm place and have a pitchfork up your @ss." Also since we're touching on the subject of contradictions remember that nice Adam and Eve story? And how Cain kills Abel? And then Cain gets shunned, but then Cain says "I'm scared of people hurting me." If Adam and Eve with their kids are the only people on earth why is Cain afraid of OTHERS hurting him?

wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

And then Cain gets shunned, but then Cain says "I'm scared of people hurting me." If Adam and Eve with their kids are the only people on earth why is Cain afraid of OTHERS hurting him?



This is why, and just one illustration, I think the Bible's missing some pages. All I know is the Bible doesn't say who's living outside of the garden of Eden until Adam and Eve are 'booted'. The Bible says that Adam named her Eve because she is the mother of all mankind.

I guess Cain was an old man with anger management problems? He must have been paranoid because he would have been afraid of his own siblings?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

You do know that you've repeated yourself?


Yes because you keep saying there is no contradictions.

The first death is spiritual and the second death is the sleep you don't wake up from.
I'm saying it this way so that there isn't any misunderstanding. If you read a passage like this in the book of Isaiah or, Revelation, you'll know that I told you the truth.


If it's all just spiritual death what about this verse?

Leviticus 20:16
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And getting back to God's army didn't he have Moses gather this army just so they could go off and kill a bunch of people?...physically.

I'm a bit tired I will try to find more tomorrow maybe. but here's another contradiction.

Isaiah 14:21
Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

Another thing I was just thinking about how can a jealous God be perfect? jealousy is a fault.

Paul is writing to the Church in Thessalonica, giving them encouragement because of the persecutions and trials they've been enduring, (at the hands of the Romans), because of their faith. So let me back up to verse 5, so nothing is taken out of context.


Yes that's why he said it but the point is that it's an example where it's directly stated that disobeying God get's you sent to hell.

"I'm scared of people hurting me." If Adam and Eve with their kids are the only people on earth why is Cain afraid of OTHERS hurting him?


There is mention of other people outside of Eden but it never mentions where they came from.
I have heard of some story of a character called Lilith who's story was supposedly dropped from Bible canon that explains this oddity.
thoadthetoad
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thoadthetoad
5,642 posts
Peasant

Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.


From what I can tell Lucifer was corrupted from his vanity. Therefore, god created a good foundation... But Lucifer and evil things like him were free-thinkers etc, therefore they commited to "evil" deeds.

Atheism for religion. Weird.
justaroundthecorner
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justaroundthecorner
78 posts
Nomad

I wonder how long this thread will last.
The first time i came here, it was at 40 pages.
Now a month or two later its 108.
At this rate, it will grow to around 400 pages a year. Maybe even more, because it seems to grow like 4 pages a day... will it ever end?
STOP THE MADNESS!!
lol

wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

From what I can tell Lucifer was corrupted from his vanity. Therefore, god created a good foundation... But Lucifer and evil things like him were free-thinkers etc, therefore they commited to "evil" deeds.


My arguement has already been stated that Lucifer may not be as "evil" as the religious perceive this character to be because the bible is a form of propaganda. Many (of course) disagree with this, but I wonder if they simple disagree because they are so bound in their beliefs instead of truly considering the proposal I offered a few pages back.

Throughout history those deemed free thinkers have been condemned for their beliefs. And yet those of the religious community always wonder why they are met with hostility on some accounts. The Christiandom throughout history is one of totalitarianism where anything that goes against the church must be subdued, destroyed, obliterated. The church (especially in the Dark Ages) would have the world, or at least their believers, submit to their creed as mindless sheep. Various sects of Christianity have banned pieces of great literature because it either "criticized" or "demonized" the church. So once again I offer my proposal, my arguement:

Is Lucifer truly evil? How can this character be truly evil if god, in all knowledge brought this to be? God brought about the rebelion and is the rebelion a terrible thing? Rebelions are often (not always) held to overthrow a tyrant, someone who would oppress the masses. Perhaps Lucifer is not how he is painted. The bible may very well be the greatest propaganda in human history.

I urge to to lay aside your belief and truly consider what I am saying. Judge with the mind of reason and not the mind of faith. For reason stems from logic and logic cannot be subjected to the heart, for then the judgements are clouded by passion. Belief is that passion.
wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

There is mention of other people outside of Eden but it never mentions where they came from.
I have heard of some story of a character called Lilith who's story was supposedly dropped from Bible canon that explains this oddity.


I saw that later, after I had commented. The Bible mentioned what the area looked like, a little, but no mention of other people, unless I missed something.

Yes, I've heard of Lilith and I've heard the argument that that is why it appears two different authors wrote Genesis 1 and 2. They claim there were two creations.

The writing style looks different between the two chapters but chapter 2 also explains more as if Chapter 1 is the over-view of the 6 day creation, and chapter 2 gives the detail of and focus on the different flora and fauna, the garden of Eden.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

I saw that later, after I had commented. The Bible mentioned what the area looked like, a little, but no mention of other people, unless I missed something.


I can't remember the exact number but Adam and Eve had quite a few more kids than just Cain and Abel. They spread out fairly fast and began to create new groups of peoples which may account for Cain's statement.
TacoNinja27
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TacoNinja27
212 posts
Nomad

if god created all things, how did he come?
did he create himself?

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