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DrCool1
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DrCool1
210 posts
Bard

Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.

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thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Your dumb. Seriously do you understand that if there is no absolute truth than there is no absolute logic and I can continue to ignore your posts because your the one not making any sense not me.


Logic is not subjective. There is an absolute logic, and that absolute logic is made up of what we know to be true and correct.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

Logic is not subjective. There is an absolute logic, and that absolute logic is made up of what we know to be true and correct.


Which would make it an individual idea because not everyone knows the same things to be true and correct. Thus, again, making it subjective.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Which would make it an individual idea because not everyone knows the same things to be true and correct. Thus, again, making it subjective.


You saying this convinces me that you don't know what logic is. Logic is not defined by an individual's opinions, but by the absolute fact. It is no more and no less than inductive and deductive reasoning - the tool that we use to discern true from false. And it is based on what we know as scientific and/or philospohical fact, not the opinions or views of the individual. It is one of the basic principles of logic that it is not subjective, and you thinking it is means that you don't know what logic is.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

It is one of the basic principles of logic that it is not subjective, and you thinking it is means that you don't know what logic is.


This doesn't make any sense what so ever as no two people know the exact same things to be true thus making your definition of logic subjective. I know things are fact that you do not and you know things are fact that I do not thus, by your definition of logic, our "logics" are different.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

This doesn't make any sense what so ever as no two people know the exact same things to be true thus making your definition of logic subjective. I know things are fact that you do not and you know things are fact that I do not thus, by your definition of logic, our "logics" are different.


Umm . . . no. You didn't even read my post, or you didn't understand it. Logic does not have anything to do with observation, therefore there are no observers to color it differently. Logic is based on ABSOLUTE FACT, NOT WHAT PEOPLE THINK IS ABSOLUTE FACT.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

This doesn't make any sense what so ever as no two people know the exact same things to be true


This is exactly why we have people that produce various research information and findings that show us what is true and what is becoming true. There are MANY MANY things that 2 different people both know that are the same truths. We do not necessarily have to observe this truth for ourselves; all that does is help us understand this logic more.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Basically, the knowledge we have is subjective, as are the conclusions we draw from it, but the tool we use to draw those conclusions - logic - is necessarily true, and therefore not subjective because it is not based on the viewpoints or opinions of a certain person.

samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

Logic is based on ABSOLUTE FACT, NOT WHAT PEOPLE THINK IS ABSOLUTE FACT.


Caps! :0

I suppose I'm not understanding you then that or your not understanding me. As I pointed out we don't have absolute knowledge of everything; so if I've never heard of evolution, logically, I couldn't use it as logic.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

That's why you must learn of it and understand it so you can see the logic of our posts! Seeing everything around you both alive and non-existing, how it got there, when it got there, and why it's there in the first place and understanding the concepts of it just makes you feel great about yourself. Saying it all succinctly happened at once when we know everything gradually came into existence one at a time just doesn't feel right to me. :-/

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Sure I did, I'm confused why your not accepting them as an answer though.


What answers?

From a worldly perspective this would encapsulate all opinions as there is a correct answer to them; however, because of our limited knowledge we form ideas based on supporting facts and other beliefs.


As I said since we are speaking of sin it's more accurate to state objective morality rather then absolute true. I ask for an example of this and all you said was God is truth all things have a right and wrong answer. But you never gave me an example of this.

They were commanded by God to not eat the apple. I doubt they knew why but they were in a utopia and generally shouldn't have cared (stupid curiosity).


I already knew they were commanded by God and you said they wouldn't likely know they just lived in a paradise and likely didn't care. This is why I often compare this whole story to giving a child a loaded gun. If they had no ability to know the action was wrong then God punishing them for it makes no sense.

But the question wasn't weather they knew or not or even weather God commanded them or not. I was asking how they could determine this action to be wrong. I'm guessing in a round about way your saying they couldn't but this would then just place the blame on God for leaving them with something that dangerous and no idea that listening to what God said was the right thing to do.

Things got bad after the fall and before they were perfect. I'm to tired to flesh out this point so consider this atheists 0.5 Christians 0.


All did here was restate bad things happened after the fall. I was asking for the correlation of how a single immoral action could physically alter the structure of countless organisms.

Seriously do you understand that if there is no absolute truth than there is no absolute logic and I can continue to ignore your posts because your the one not making any sense not me.


technically there is no absolute certainly only levels of certainty.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

I suppose I'm not understanding you then that or your not understanding me. As I pointed out we don't have absolute knowledge of everything; so if I've never heard of evolution, logically, I couldn't use it as logic.


No, I'm understanding you. We don't need to know everything to be logical.

On the 2nd thing you said, it doesn't matter if you know something or not, because you are an observer. It matters is something is scientific/philosophical fact or not - what you think has not effect on scientific or philosophical fact. Once again, logic is based on ABSOLUTE FACT, NOT WHAT PEOPLE THINK IS ABSOLUTE FACT.
wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

I was a student at a Catholic school for nine years of my educational carreer. During that time I was force fed more religion than I can pissibly bear. Since then I've had others force their belief upon me. That being said I HAVE read the bible, however, not seeing it as anything more than a form of propaganda I refuse to allow it for "evidence" because I do not believe it to hold anything of value to me. Also I do not memoirze passages and quotes from the bible, but by all means I'll start paraphrasing things I do know, just don't expect a reference.



I sorry if you think what I said was harsh or disrespectful. I'm also sorry if you came away from Catholic School with a feeling of having religion forced on you.
I wasn't trying to back you into a corner but I just wanted to see where your 'spiritual head' was at?

We can agree to disagree.


So if God is commanding you to kill and not kill you would just kill those who were specified? Okay, umm, stay away from deal? Because now you just sound dangerous.


I think I just had an epiphany! I know why you, (collectively) keep asking the same questions. You're still making God into a human. You also consider the church to be a brick building where a bunch of people get dressed up to go to every Saturday night, or Sunday morning, etc.
God's people are the church not the building.

God is Spirit, not human. If you keep placing human attributes to a spiritual being you'll never understand any part of the Bible.

You think that every battle is on the bloody battle field?

If God calls me to 'kill' witches then all I have to do is pray to God and ask for a spiritual healing. It's a spiritual death not a physical death. Unless witches start hunting Christians, then I say, "bring it."

Everything I've been talking about deals with the human spirit relating, communicating, praising the Holy Spirit who takes my human, dirty words and cleans them up, like a CD cleaner, so that what God hears are the words of my heart.

Oh, and Mage, you must have understood the verses from Hebrews because you haven't said a word about them.


Hmm, nope. Well it was a picture of WestBoro Baptist Church doing what they do at funerals.


That's low, especially for you, Mage, because you know my father was a WWII veteran. If you didn't you'll know now because I never want to be accused nor associated with a vicious cult like that.

He served as gunner and a mechanic for the Army Air Corps during the entire European Theatre, starting in N.Africa, on to Italy, on to S.France, N.France, His unit flew air support for General Patton. My fathers unit was being ordered to deploy and head for the Pacific Theatre. The had to swing that big QEII around and head for NYC harbor because after they were heading for the Cape of Good Hope they received the best news they had heard for years, the war was over!
Now my brother never had to see any action when he served in the Navy. He had a couple of close calls while stationed in Okinawa.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

Once again, logic is based on ABSOLUTE FACT, NOT WHAT PEOPLE THINK IS ABSOLUTE FACT.


So logic would have an exact definition then?

Either way were off topic and lord knows we'll ever agree with each other.

Hmm, nope. Well it was a picture of WestBoro Baptist Church doing what they do at funerals.


Idiots. If they were an atheist group it "might" be excusable but there should be no tolerance for this in the church.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

That's low,


Not really. He was saying that if the undecided people are hated by god, then why not the morally reprehensible people like the Islamic extremists or the WBC, his point being that even people who have decided can be worse morally than those who have not. It's not low at all, it's just an argument ploy.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

So logic would have an exact definition then?


Yes. An objective definition.

Samy, you'll agree with me if you take the time to read the wikipedia article on logic.

Also, wajor, it was a bit mean, yeah, but I don't think it was really low because he was pretty much saying 'well, look at how despicable the WBC is - and God doesn't hate them because they've decided on their religious views?'
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