ForumsWEPRCommunism=Success?

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Bloodscum
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Bloodscum
115 posts
Nomad

Do you think Communism could benefit a country?
Personally, I am in favour of it, because I like the idea of an equal distribution of wealth and a proper welfare system for the people.

I also am not in favour of the Capitalist idea of the rich benefitting simply because they have more money, and the labourers working hard yet still being paid badly, or the unemployed who are deprived jobs because the capitalist entrepreneurs find it more profitable to use machines.

I'd appreciate your views on the subject

  • 173 Replies
Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

I don't think Utopian socialists even exist anymore.

Social democratic would be the libertarian socialists. Anarchism I mentioned. Syndicalism is a branch of anarchism.

And Christian communists don't really have a unique ideology. There just communists who are Christian.

samwynter
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samwynter
80 posts
Nomad

i think it could if it was true communism. it would be better than Obama

FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

I don't think Utopian socialists even exist anymore.


Christiania ftw.

Kind of an odd mix of anarcho communism, socialism and christianity.
Flipski
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Flipski
623 posts
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Drace you make some good points about Capitalism and Walmart, and others.

I agree Socialism/Communism is far superior on paper than Capitalism. Everyone would love to live in a healthy country, with prosperity, and equality, and a fair system. But, in practice Communism has many downsides and fails to deliver the ideal situation. Don't get me wrong, Capitalism has some extreme downsides as well. It also is not good at providing what it promises, and there are also many ways in which the system can be abused.

I just believe that Capitalism is slightly better than Communism in practice. Even better, is the correct mixture of Socialism and Capitalism. Think about it, you need capitalist systems to encourage market activity, and to allow the market to follow the needs and wants of the people, not what one group of people mandates for the society, but you need socialist systems to protect the people from the stronger market drivers. It makes sense.

I think it's pointless to argue one side or the other. Because no government is essentially one way or another, they are all mixtures of ideals. The problem relies on what the best mixture is.


About the war comment. Communist countries in the past have mostly been run by dictators. Thus they could force the whole country to fight. In democracies, many people decide not to fight if they disagree with a war. You can start a draft, but even then, you don't have the type of full commitment and propaganda that was created by communist countries.

In democracies, there is more freedom from an oppressive government. In communist countries there is more protection from an oppressive economy. I prefer the former. The government is able to abuse more power. While the economy can only put stresses on you in the monetary aspect.

Also Drace, have you been to the United States? Just wondering.

Drace
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Drace
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Flipski,

Communism as the "classless and stateless" society has never really been practiced. That is, if you exclude primitive communism and much of the egalitarian communities of the Native Americans.

What has failed is the attempts of it. Though, to generalize the statement that "Communism attempts fail" as a law, requires much more complex analysis. Each socialist country fell to different causes and of different circumstances. I don't see any principle that would lead any communist revolution to be inevitably fail. However, the natural anti-communist tendency of states like the US do play a role in their downfall.

Though I still view Cuba as a positive example of a socialist state.

Looking at the world's situation right now, and the existence of massive poverty, capitalism seems to be easily refuted for bringing prosperity.

I also fail to be conscious of the notion of "free markets". Under capitalism, the means of production are controlled by a few individuals compared to the massive numbers who live only as long as they can find jobs.
In this way the market activity only consists of less than 1% of the population, the bourgeoisie.

Corporations do not follow the needs of people, their motivational drive instead is profit. While arguably profit is earned through meetings the needs of the people, it is important to make the distinction because a several factors play a negative factor in this relationship.

1) The "needs of the people" is not determined by the amount of people, but rather the amount of money. Thus, if 100 individuals wanted things like health care, food, shelter, etc but each only had a $1 each then their "vote" would be vetoed by a single individual who has $200. Relatively, 1% of the population owns 40% of the wealth. In this way, the poorer individuals (Which now constitute the majority of the population) are thrown out of the equation. Their needs go un served by the market and are only be able to be met by welfare programs. Though unfortunately, only the poor in more industrial and richer countries are able to enjoy this welfare.
Corporations, then, become obligated to only serve those who have the wealth to purchase their products. What is profitable is not serving human need, but serving the want of the richer individuals.

So if you look at this page and scroll to the bottom you will see the major outbalance of luxury goods to the basic needs.

$11 billion is spent on ice cream every year in Europe, and another $12 billion on perfumes while only $9 billion is being spent on water and sanitation in the developing countries.
More shocking statistics are $780 billion dollar military spending in the world compared to $13 billion in developing countries for basic health and nutrition.

2. Imperialism. There is much differentiation in the global aspect concerning wealth and poverty.
Imperialism is the direct intervention in foreign affairs, whether politically, militarily, or economically, for the self interest and expansion of the committing country.
We find that the economically and industrial developed countries tend to have a long list of imperialist crimes. The United States for example, has been involved(in an antagonistic way) with more than 20 countries in the last century. This includes, many Latin American countries, Indonesia, Spain, Congo, South Africa, Philippines, Haiti, Albania, Greece, etc.
Even now, the United States poses an economic blockade against Cuba and is fighting 2 wars in the Middle East!

The earlier history of the United States also places it at an economic advantage. It a history of the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, imperialism and massive and harsh industrialization.

Britain similarly, owned at one point in time 1/4 of the World's land, much in the form of colonies and slavery!

In recent news we also hear about Haiti, and what a miserable poverty its in. Though its never mentioned that it was a slave to the French and later subjected to much American sabotage.

It is no wonder than why these countries are prosperous. Capitalism plays no role in this development. Feudalism too had created a few prosperous and strong countries while it left others weak and poor. This is the same situation we have today. If you look at a map, you notice how different parts of the world are rich, while others poor.
The only way right wingers can explain this geological mystery of poverty only through the addition of racism. Blacks, then are not poor because of the slavery and imperialism but rather because they are un-civilized.

The increase in living standards in the last century can be credited more to the anti-capitalist movement! It is thanks to the labor unions and their fight against the brutal tyranny of capitalism as a whole that the minimum wage, environmental protection, worker safety, woman's rights, civil rights, and child labor laws were introduced.

I think it's pointless to argue one side or the other. Because no government is essentially one way or another, they are all mixtures of ideals. The problem relies on what the best mixture is.


Communism calls for a new method of production, a society in which the workers own property commonly.
It is hard to imagine a mix of capitalism and communism, you either have the means of productions owned privately or you don't.

However, you might want to look at market socialism.

About the war comment. Communist countries in the past have mostly been run by dictators. Thus they could force the whole country to fight. In democracies, many people decide not to fight if they disagree with a war. You can start a draft, but even then, you don't have the type of full commitment and propaganda that was created by communist countries.


Not that I approve of dictatorships, but that's a simplified view.
And I'd love to argue on how the US is nothing close to a democracy.
But to keep it short, the current wars are opposed by the majority, yet it is still being fought.
People would never approve the Iraq war if the US said "we are going there to establish a military presence and profit our Oil companies." instead, to gain support they had to lie about WMDS, women's right protections, bla bla.

The propaganda has been huge in the United States as well btw.

And I'm actually living in the United States! Haha
Drace
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Drace
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One statement I forgot to make about free markets.

3) Capitalism and imperialism naturally, for the sake profit, try to maximize resources and labor through the use of third world exploitation and globalization but to keep their markets. In other words, new businesses aren't built in places where there are relatively few markets (the "developing" countries). Instead, they use the resources of the third world and their labor but ship their products to their homeland where profit can be made by selling to the consumerist masses.

VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
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I'd just like to randomly state that the goal of the Soviet Union under Stalin greatly differs from what Marx would have wanted. The Stalinist theory was: If the Soviet Union dominates the globe and violently oppresses disent, then a transition from socialism to communism would occur. Stalin's attempt was a historical failiure but that does not mean it wasn't impossible for it to be successful. Trotsky's idea was to ignite a proletarian revolution at the same time all over the world. As we know, Trotsky ( who in my opinion was more consistent with Marxism than Stalin ) never was able to test his version of a communist takeover.

AlexPaint
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AlexPaint
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My parents lived in Soviet Ukraine.They told me everything was superb then. But living in democratic Ukraine is a way better, I can vote, I can choose a subculture and a hobby. It's interesting to dream about that times will come back and everything will be very cheap)))

thealchemist1
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thealchemist1
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I believe the idea is amazing. But I don't have enough faith in humanity to be able to follow through with it. One point is that we are a lazy species, so if the wealth is shared, then obviously people will rather take the easier job, like stocking shelves over being a brain surgeon. And also how easily corruptible we are. In Communism there are a select number of people who are the government, they make sure all money is evenly divided, etc. That is a position that is easily corrupted. If we could have a society that actually paid attention to the news (I'm from Canada where people have a hard time realizing when stupid shit is going on) and then have elected officials whose power is somehow not infinite then Communism would work.

VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
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like stocking shelves over being a brain surgeon.


Why the hell would someone who can be a brian surgeon for the rest of their lives want to stalk shelves for 8 hours a day? That was a horrible argument, you need to go to school for many years and it costs A LOT of money, I very much doubt anyone ever has gone through that much schooling only for the money, they have to atleast like what they're doing first. In communist society, you can go to a university FOR FREE and be taught by people who love teaching. Then you can go on to be a brian surgeon and work without worrying about not getting paid.
Drace
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Drace
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Nomad

How do you propose humans are lazy? We value our survival and we would even resort to cannibalism to keep ourselves alive if it wasn't for our sense of morals.

Communism would not be centrally administrated. We are against the state and even such form of private property.

Communism is about the worker ownership of the means of production. About the working class taking power to gain control over itself.

Many people actually did read the news before the upsurge of consumerism.

yeltuhamy
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yeltuhamy
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Nomad

Communism in theory is great. All the people are equally wealthy etc. But in practice it is a flawed system. Absenteeism and poor standards of living are proof of this. In this era, people work for money, so they want more money for the amount of effort they put in, which makes sense. Communism however would give everyone the same wages for different amounts of work and effort.
I think the best system would be one where there is a mixture of ideas and ideals. Ie. a system where you can make your own money AND where the rich help out those less fortunate. Don't count on it happening in this era though. Rich people want to get richer and poor people are only getting poorer :S

VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
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Communism in theory is great. All the people are equally wealthy etc. But in practice it is a flawed system. Absenteeism and poor standards of living are proof of this. In this era, people work for money, so they want more money for the amount of effort they put in, which makes sense. Communism however would give everyone the same wages for different amounts of work and effort.
I think the best system would be one where there is a mixture of ideas and ideals. Ie. a system where you can make your own money AND where the rich help out those less fortunate. Don't count on it happening in this era though. Rich people want to get richer and poor people are only getting poorer :S



Everything and anything in theory is great. Pure capitalism is great in theory .

What do you think capitalism provides that socialism does not? Do honestly believe that huge corporation, indeed the example of what all Americans are in theory are able to achieve if they "work hard enough" care about you? Every major car dealership only cares about selling cars. Try to get your car repaired under warranty and see what happens. I guarantee when you call your local dealer they either won't call back or come up with some excuse. Think Wal-Mart is great because of all its consumer-friendly prices? Wait another decade without any government regulation to slow down the destructive nature of capitalism and you'll see how friendly Wal-Mart is when it controls the entire retail sector because all other competitors have been wiped out.

Almost every U.S and European president has supported only the bourgeoisie while in theory supporting the citizens. Obama, Bush, Reagan, or former President Clinton have gone on expensive vactations and purchased fancy meals at YOUR expense. Why don't they spend your tax dollars on something useful like the tottering economy? Why doesn't capitalism or even semi-capitalism work? The people need to control their daily lives, not the wealthy, corrupt, elite. Representative democracy will only get us a foot in the door, revolution is perhaps the only effective way of changing our social and economic set up. The only choice we have in our system is the ability to vote for which man or woman can screw us over in the long run.
xbox360XD
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xbox360XD
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Nomad

ONE THING.........2O12

yeltuhamy
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yeltuhamy
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Nomad

Ofcourse, thats what I mean. People only care for getting the most money for the least work. What I proposed was a blend of socialism and capitalism. And what I meant was that people need to change themselves. Become more socially aware of others. In essence actually CARE.
But do you really think revolution will solve any problems. Ok, lets say for example the revolution took place and after much chaos and leaving the entire country basically defencless and the country somehow managed to escape being overrun by enemies (USA has MANY enemies) and everyone elected a VERY good president. And they lived happily after? Don't think so.. After a few generations, the corrupt will again take power. Then we are back to square one. A bit bleak but seems to be true. Look at history, you will find the corrupt always manged to get themselves in power again. Sad but true.
Personally, I don't think revolution is the answer, perhaps REFORM. As in avoid all the conflict and refurbish instead of destroy. Doesn't solve the corrupt issue but atleast there is no loss of life

What do you think?

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