ForumsWEPRCommunism=Success?

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Bloodscum
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Bloodscum
115 posts
Nomad

Do you think Communism could benefit a country?
Personally, I am in favour of it, because I like the idea of an equal distribution of wealth and a proper welfare system for the people.

I also am not in favour of the Capitalist idea of the rich benefitting simply because they have more money, and the labourers working hard yet still being paid badly, or the unemployed who are deprived jobs because the capitalist entrepreneurs find it more profitable to use machines.

I'd appreciate your views on the subject

  • 173 Replies
Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

First off, the 1% who own 99% did something right, and that's something to aspire to, instead of leveling the ground and ruining opportunity for everyone else.


Screwing everyone else over? What "hard work" enables you to own such great wealth? For what purpose is such great wealth even needed to few individuals?
Must you advocate feudalism too? The king deserves all the wealth he has too, then.

While people own 5000x the wealth they need, others go without food.

But really, even if 1% of the population owned 99% of the wealth, you'd be OK with it? And yet you complain about leaders in socialist governments hogging the wealth? But they did hard work to become government officials! (Lol)

If there was 100 burgers and a 100 people, then 1 person would have 99 burgers while the other 99 had to share one.

As if, 80% of humanity is completely lazy? Let me tell you people in sweatshops earning $0.50 an hour do harder work than Gates ever did.

Also, all those deaths you mentioned don't make any sense. How is it Americas fault that for example people are dying in Africa?


Globalization and imperialism. It is not directly America's fault for all of poverty, but its existence is a factor.
Workers in poorer countries are practically used as slaves for the labor needed for US corporations. Walmart for example is able to produce cheap goods because its use of cheap labor (sweatshops).

The USA has also had a direct negative influence in many poor countries such as Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua, Congo, South Africa, Iran, Afghanistan, The Philippines, Indonesia, etc. This has included complete opposition to their socialist governments, the replacement of democratically elected rulers with dictators, rigging of elections, sanctions, military intervention, military and financial support, etc.

Though, the blame isn't to America only, it just happens to be the world power right now.

Capitalism as a whole is a blame. Enough food is being produced to feed the whole population. Yet, the poor are unable to acquire it simply because they cannot afford it.

And in such chaotic production with the problems of overproduction and consumerism, much food is wasted on a production level!


This forum is about how governments affect the lives of their people. Not about how much foreign aid we give out. We have very few deaths from starvation in the US. The people in Africa are dying because of tyrant rulers, droughts, and the generally difficult region to farm in.
We were under communist occupation for some time. There was a revolution and it was overthrown around the time I was born. From what my parents tell me, it was pretty dismal. No one cared to work for anything, because you would get the same. Which was very little, because the people who were producing what you got felt the same way, had no incentives to produce more, and so everyone would live on a level of low production and struggle.


Im from Armenia, a former SSR. My dad on the hand actually tells me good things. He often says that I'd be nice if the USSR was still around. More than half the Russians agree
Also, contrary to what you said, people were never paid the same wages in Poland, or in the USSR for that matter.


The good thing about the free market is that there are incentives to work hard. The more you produce the more you can sell. This goes for factors of production as well. The more time you put it, the more money you can make. Just because a few people got ahead and own a large amount, is no reason to take down the system that works so well for everyone.


Right, the top 3 richest people have more wealth than the bottom 10% of the population combined (600,000,000). Bill Gates must be working 50000 hours a day!
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

The problem, is that its not working for everyone, and neither for the majority. Its not simply "Oh some people make 50,000 a year and other makes 120,000. Whats the big deal?"
80% of the population lives on under 10$ a day, while 50% do so for under $3.

And there indeed are problems with 1% of the problem owning much of the wealth..
They make the ruling class which owns the news, media, all means of productions, and the government.

Thus, in our history we have fabricated news, media for the entertainment purposes, and heavily marketed elections with presidents favoring corporations.
And thus, does the USA invade over 20 countries and support dictatorships in the name of the 1% elite.

Parenti talks about this in the first few minutes of this talk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEzOgpMWnVs

And again, your failing to understand the principles of communism. We do not advocate a strong government. Your confusing us with National Socialists (fascists!)
DaveTheDude
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DaveTheDude
102 posts
Nomad

Oh the irony! If you want Communism you can have it, go to China and get paid 3$ an hour for working your tail off.

P.S.

Union worker? Tough luck, raise a fit and you're disposed of.

Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

Oh the irony! If you want Communism you can have it, go to China and get paid 3$ an hour for working your tail off.


China is nothing short of capitalism.
And oh the irony, that's mostly US corporations those people are working for!

And the same reality exists in India, Indonesia, Haiti, Guatemala, El Salvador, and many many other countries.

And lol $3 hour? What heaven! They get paid like >$0.50 an hour.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

My heart is in America, yours is buried in Russia. I have no respect for anyone who wishes to replace our flag.

Anybody foolish enough to stand aside and allow for their flag to be replaced is a fool. I don't support communism, I honestly think it's a complete failure. That's why so many communist countries are now capitalist. I also realized that debating this is pointless. The only people listening any more are those who have their minds made up.

Just make sure you put your toy gun away when you're done playing war. I'm going to bed.

Cholokid
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Cholokid
1,667 posts
Shepherd

See you on the dark side of the moon.

Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

My heart is in America, yours is buried in Russia. I have no respect for anyone who wishes to replace our flag.


I been in Russia for 10 days of life, somehow I am patriotic of it now? I don't even defend the USSR on many points. And neither can you call it blind patriotism as I find its current system shit as well as its leaders.

You cant argue politics with your heart.

And yes, if you admit that your purpose of debate is merely to reinforce your patriotism, then it clearly is pointless.

Good day to you.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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Shepherd

And yes, if you admit that your purpose of debate is merely to reinforce your patriotism, then it clearly is pointless.


During this big debate, I decided to stop arguing why communism would fail, and rather why people in America wouldn't want communism, even if everything you said was true. But you couldn't even grasp that concept.

Blind patriotism is to never question your country, which I do all the time. Your obsession with communism borders that of people's obsession with religion.

I just needed to be clear on that.
Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

I decided to stop arguing why communism would fail, and rather why people in America wouldn't want communism, even if everything you said was true. But you couldn't even grasp that concept.


Yes, and I replied to with the statement that Americans don't want communism because of a century long of propaganda campaigns that were enforced on a national level.

What else was there to grasp? I understood your point, I offered a refutation, you never replied to it.

Your obsession with communism borders that of people's obsession with religion.


...As was Einstein who was fully devoted to his scientific and political thoughts. I'll take that as a compliment.
Klagshamn
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Klagshamn
18 posts
Nomad

Your point? The bible actually has much evidence of Jesus being a socialist.


My point is that Jesus was no communist... He was the origin of the idea of communism... only trouble is that when you remove God from the Christian idea (= communism) it is based on humans instead... and humans always fail, always hate, always opress and always act in their own needs first = Communism is an epic fail!
Bloodscum
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Bloodscum
115 posts
Nomad

My point is that Jesus was no communist... He was the origin of the idea of communism... only trouble is that when you remove God from the Christian idea (= communism) it is based on humans instead... and humans always fail, always hate, always opress and always act in their own needs first = Communism is an epic fail!


So... you support anarchy? Cuz most forms of economic and political ideologies come from humanity, therefore implying that every government, whether it is democratic, autocratic, capitalist or communist = epic fail.
Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
1,482 posts
Shepherd

That's how USA was made if I remember correctly. Bunch of people betrayed their flag, went to America, killed all Indians to get territory and slaves and got a new flag.


Poor argument, they did not betray their flag as if the flag represented their country.
Nor did they receive any help/proper judgement from the British Empire.
And nobody 'went' to America, for the most part after Colonial resentment started most immigrants did not even come from Britain, and those that did were probably not happy with the crown either.

But the European colonials did kill all the American Indians, for the most part, nearly 96% of them in both Northern and Southern Hemispheres. But thats not what this is about, but it sort of connects because I'm just stating that opposition against your own government and changing your flag because you support another over your owns is different than being a colony that is treated poorly and needs to fight for its own independence (whether you were living there before)

As for Marxism, Look at what Wikipedia says.
Cultural hegemony is the philosophic and sociological concept, originated by the Marxist philosopher Antonio Gramsci, that a culturally-diverse society can be ruled or dominated by one of its social classes. It is the dominance of one social group over another, i.e. the ruling class over all other classes. The ideas of the ruling class come to be seen as the norm; they are seen as universal ideologies, perceived to benefit everyone whilst only really benefiting the ruling class.

Cultural_Hegemony

Also, Bloodscum, I don't think he supports Anarchy. He said nothing about needing to use government. What he means is -- that when you take the whole God thing out of the Biblical theology that we should all share + love/whatever -- Then there is no incentive to work [Communist countries have outlawed religion as it is in the past] and therefore we, as humans, would always fail by trying to act upon their own needs (Such as, If I'm going to get payed the same whether I work my arse off or not, then I guess its A-Ok to slack. Yeah!]

By the way, Drace, in what ways can you actually prove that Communism is successful? China is not nearly of any evidence, and Russias own history goes against it. In what other ways do you think Communism would work -- are you trying to imply that a different 'style' of communism would work or what? I'm asking this because any historical evidence you give is easily backfired at because Communist countries have not existed that much in history and many of them have been pwned in war/have declined/failed.
Shadow_Knight
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Shadow_Knight
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Nomad

Communism is a society where everybody gets paid,and everybody works.Though you have to remember that both systems are flawed.(the other being capitalism) Though Communism allows everybody to be paid and everybody is working, it violates the human nature of Jealousy. And the power is in the power of the Politicians and Military. Though Capitalism allows everybody to get payed differently based on many things, it funnels the riches into the few.

VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

pwned in war/


A communist nation has never been defeated in a conventional war.
Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

By the way, Drace, in what ways can you actually prove that Communism is successful? China is not nearly of any evidence, and Russias own history goes against it. In what other ways do you think Communism would work -- are you trying to imply that a different 'style' of communism would work or what? I'm asking this because any historical evidence you give is easily backfired at because Communist countries have not existed that much in history and many of them have been pwned in war/have declined/failed.


China went under massive revisionism and is no longer communist. Korea also completely took out any references of communism in its constitution.
Russia's history is much more complex than Russia tried communism, it didn't work. Recent polls actually show that many found life in the Soviet Union better than current Russia. Statistical analysis of its standards of living show likewise.

Cuba is actually a very good example of socialism. There are also many working communes around the world like Free Christiana around Copenhagen, Denmark.
There is also primitive communism.

And really, losing in war shows no weakness of the ideology. Though I can't recall any socialist countries losing any major wars. Afghanistan perhaps?

Capitalism too could be seen as idealistic a few centuries back ago as well.
You posted the link to Cultural Hegemony, which ties in perfectly with here.
The ruling class ideology becomes the norm and thus capitalism as seen as clear as rain. Any differentiation of that seems Utopian as it goes against this "established human nature and society". If there was a feudalism movement which advocated a revolution to throw the capitalists and create a feudal society, that too would be seen as Utopian even though history shows that its existence was very real!

You would then have the same arguments against feudalism. "Human nature could not co exist with feudalism" ,"How would this feudalistic society work" "Wouldn't people rebel?" etc...

But certainly, different leftists advocate different means. There are the anarchists, libertarian socialists, the Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, Hoxhaists, left communists and such.
VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

But certainly, different leftists advocate different means. There are the anarchists, libertarian socialists, the Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, Hoxhaists, left communists and such.


Don't you dare forget about the Utopians socialists, the social democratic movements, the anarcho-commies, the syndicalists, or the christian communists!
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