ForumsThe TavernFacts

21 3957
Graham
offline
Graham
8,047 posts
Nomad

1st. Truth is consistency.

Facts change with time, and are perceptual. Ergo facts are paradoxical.

What about Math?
Math is a concept; purely an idea.

Are ideas consistent? How would you determine if something even is consistent?

How are they Perceptual?
Quantitative and Qualitative data is collected from perceiving something.

How about: You see you have one couch. Is the couch really there or just in your head? If a majority says the couch is there does it mean it is? A majority could be classified as inconsistent with the minority. So, Facts=Opinion; Facts are paradoxical.

I lean on the transcendent conception of consciousness rather than materialistic if you haven't noticed.

*running fingers through hair trying to think about this*

  • 21 Replies
Cenere
offline
Cenere
13,656 posts
Jester

Why is my homework beginning to sneak on the internet in the form of Graham lately...
Also, isn't the latter part (perception and reality) directly relevant to Moegreche's Knowledge of the External World?
Let's see... Facts change: Yes, by adding new knowledge to it, which makes it change, but in theory, you are not changing the fact, you are making a new, truer fact.
And going into field I don't like very much: If something is sensed and measured, it is verified. If something is verified, it is true. You can see and feel the couch, it is there. You can give us the mass and measurements of it, and someone else gets the same results, then the couch has been "verified" thus it is there.
Don't we all love scientific theories that can be used on regular stuff?

Math is also a "formal science", which basically means it doesn't (have to) relate to reality.

Strop
offline
Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

You see you have one couch. Is the couch really there or just in your head?


The two options you've provided imply empiricism and idealism!
Graham
offline
Graham
8,047 posts
Nomad

Facts change: Yes, by adding new knowledge to it, which makes it change, but in theory, you are not changing the fact, you are making a new, truer fact.


wouldn't this make the object change continuously forever? and it's for the observer only?

You can see and feel the couch, it is there. You can give us the mass and measurements of it, and someone else gets the same results, then the couch has been "verified" thus it is there.


You assume it is there. What would happen if someone came out with a different measurement? You test it several times and each come out with different results. do you ignore them and assume you're the one who's right?

Also, isn't the latter part (perception and reality) directly relevant to Moegreche's Knowledge of the External World?


i've just been reading Alterations of consciousness : an empirical analysis for social scientists and built on to my previous idea of Facts change with time.
Cenere
offline
Cenere
13,656 posts
Jester

wouldn't this make the object change continuously forever? and it's for the observer only?

Uhm... Facts change because we find out more? I never said the object changed. Besides, there is no such thing as facts.
You assume it is there. What would happen if someone came out with a different measurement? You test it several times and each come out with different results. do you ignore them and assume you're the one who's right?

As mentioned, it is a scientific theory I don't like very much. Positivism.
If you test something several times and get a new result each time, there is something wrong with your experiment.

So, let's put it into terms: There are no facts, because facts would need a certainty that isn't there. There are theories and opinions. Theories changes when there is something new found out, to adjust it to the reality there seemingly is. Facts can be said to be generally accepted theories, so that way facts do change, but by elaborating on the theory, you make it more true. If truth is consistency, facts are never fully true, but will always move closer to being true. That way, they are often true enough for us to use them as truth.
Perception is another matter, and so is opinion. Opinions are subjective and so is perception. In reality we could be seeing everything differently, or we could live in our own little world, where we only imagine other people being around. This ties with the fact being a generally accepted theory, that is close to an objective truth.
I don't like being in school when I am at home - -
Graham
offline
Graham
8,047 posts
Nomad

Uhm... Facts change because we find out more? I never said the object changed. Besides, there is no such thing as facts.


the sentence was originally: wouldn't this make the change continuously forever? just stuck the word object in there rather than getting rid of -sly in continue.

There are no facts, because facts would need a certainty that isn't there.


why did this and unknown thread have to result with being only being words for ideas you can't fully understand? (rhetorical)

*tired half facepalm*

I don't like being in school when I am at home - -


Cenere
offline
Cenere
13,656 posts
Jester

the sentence was originally: wouldn't this make the change continuously forever? just stuck the word object in there rather than getting rid of -sly in continue.

Currently, half the theories haven't been changed in a long time. If they have stopped, or they are just taking a break because no one is trying to make them grow... Well, I don't know. But in theory (harhar) they will stop changing the moment they become the truth.

why did this and unknown thread have to result with being only being words for ideas you can't fully understand? (rhetorical)

You can't discuss words without using them, thus you cannot discuss it in a proper objective way
I hate you too, Zinkernagel...

Now I want to make a thread on usability just to bother people with stuff I have read.
valkery
offline
valkery
1,255 posts
Nomad

If a human has thought, consiousness, and a physical form, but relies solely on a machine to keep the thought and consious going, is the human alive or is he/she/it a dead being with no real conception of time or space?

Or is time and space not really existant and the human is living a perfectly normal life compared to what it would if time and space were a reality and not just a thought in the back of someother beings mind?

NoNameC68
offline
NoNameC68
5,031 posts
Shepherd

Facts are only factual to those who beleive the facts to be valid.

If it is beleived that the world is flat when it is not, then it is a fact to everyone who beleives it and not to those who don't. This does not mean the world really is flat, it only means that the majority of people accept the world to be flat.

How about: You see you have one couch. Is the couch really there or just in your head? If a majority says the couch is there does it mean it is? A majority could be classified as inconsistent with the minority. So, Facts=Opinion; Facts are paradoxical.


I can safely say that the world is round, and that it is a fact, because all of us here agree that this is a valid statement. We all perceive it as fact, and therefore it is a (commonly accepted) fact.

The Sun is not a ball of gas, but a ball of plasma. Let us pretend, for the sake of argument, that everyone here finds this to be a vailid statement. It would then become a fact that the Sun is a ball of plasma. Obviously, if the sun actually is a ball of gas, we are wrong, but it would still remain a (commonly accepted) fact. However, I am certain that you will find people who still think the sun is a ball of gas. So what is fact is only fact to those who beleive it to be true.

On the flip side, I can be schizophrenic and say that there's a dolphin living in my couch. To me, this would be a fact, even if it's not true. I could also say that there was a crab living in my pillow (which could-for sake of argument-be true), but nobody could beleive me. Therefore, it would still remain a fact only to me, and to everyone else I would be wrong.

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.


Fact is a truth. Truth is actuality.

Actuality falls into two catagories, what truly is, and what is perceived. Everything we think and know is perceived, nothing is known without perception, therefore actuallity through what is perceived may differ from actuallity that truly is. There is no absolute way to know if what truly is matches up with what we perceive. Therefore, fact really means:

Fact is a truth. Truth is perception.

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.


In short, this means that nothing is absolute. We all may accept that the sun is a ball of plasma, when in actuallity (that truly is), it could be a gas; it could be a plasma, but because there is no way of actually knowing what truly is, but only what is perceived, it is not absolutely true. Let me use Assassin's Creed as an example. What everyone sees to be a priest may actually be a priest, but there's no certainty that it really is a priest. If it truly is a priest, it may be true, but there's no way for anybody to actually KNOW, only to perceive that it's a priest; because what everyone perceives as a priest could really be a deadly assassin. This is why the phrase is used in Assassin's Creed

However, there's no point in rejecting what we perceive, because it is impossible not to perceive as it is also impossible to go beyond perception such as magically "knowing" as if we were God.

Perception is real, because reality is perceived.
Graham
offline
Graham
8,047 posts
Nomad

I can safely say that the world is round, and that it is a fact, because all of us here agree that this is a valid statement. We all perceive it as fact, and therefore it is a (commonly accepted) fact.


the only problem is that you assume that all of us here agree from past experiences.
marioman327
offline
marioman327
290 posts
Nomad

Truth is perception.


False, sir. Truth is true, end of story, no matter what we perceive. I am perceiving that I am sitting at home typing on my computer, when in fact I could be, in truth, just a brain in a lab somewhere being manipulated to think what the scientists want. If I have misinterpreted what you were saying please say so.
Graham
offline
Graham
8,047 posts
Nomad

Truth is true,


a dog is a dog; a rock is a rock. A rock can be broken down more specifically like being graphite.

Truth is perception

[quote]If I have misinterpreted what you were saying please say so.
[/quote]

Truth is your perception.
marioman327
offline
marioman327
290 posts
Nomad

Truth is your perception.


This is the idea of relativism, which in my opinion is complete absurdity. An orange is orange, this is truth, fact, common knowledge. Someone who is color blind sees it as gray. Is the orange gray? Of course not. Something can't be true for only one person; that defeats the definition of truth.
Graham
offline
Graham
8,047 posts
Nomad

An orange is orange, this is truth, fact, common knowledge


You assume your orange is the same as everyone elses. Your orange may be different shade than another's orange. your orange may be your purple to another. how would you know?

Someone who is color blind sees it as gray. Is the orange gray?


say, before knowing that you are color blind, would you call it orange? or call it gray?
sourwhatup2
offline
sourwhatup2
3,660 posts
Jester

Someone who is color blind sees it as gray. Is the orange gray?


Depending on what color blindness it is . . . .
Cenere
offline
Cenere
13,656 posts
Jester

a rock is a rock

"A rock cannot fly, mother cannot fly, thus mother is a rock."
Sorry.
Showing 1-15 of 21