ForumsWEPRTheology + Biology.

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thoadthetoad
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thoadthetoad
5,642 posts
Peasant

I tend to ask questions that mix Theology and Biology a lot. I find it to be fun and very difficult. For instance, my favorite question would have to be about cloning.

Cloning, currently it's used for livestock to make drugs and better milkers, or meat givers. But it has rarely been done on humans. It has never gone past a sexual reproductive "helper".

Let's just say that someone made a pure clone. Took the DNA from one subject and put it in a random egg. This would be a human clone. A clone which has it's own personality etc... However, it was not technically made by the natural process of reproduction. Therefore...

Does a full-fledged clone have a soul? A theological soul? Is it a soul-less husk? Why would it have a personality if it is in a theological sense? Where in our brains is the ability to have a personality?

Also things like: Since we are made out of several billion (or even trillion, I forgot) cells, are we a collective conceince, much like bees? Or are we still a single being? Each one of our cells has a different specialized function with all the same instructions... So are we just 1 thing or are we 3 trillion thinking together?

and: Where is our sentience? Our emotions and ability to thing logically and theologically? Our ability to analyze and study unlike any other organism? How do we do this and how is it enabled? Why do no other organisms have this?

It's a little odd. I ponder these in my spare time and haven't a clue what the answer is. In a mixed sense, they all go in circles. In one sense or the other they make complete sense.

It's like, what would a random person beleive in if they were a perfectly well adjusted and logical being? Would they go for science, that tends to explain nearly everything, or Theology which can explain everything, but only vaguely?

I just realized that Theology might have been the wrong word. Fffff-

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

To answer the question we must first define what a soul is and what function it preforms.

aknerd
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aknerd
1,416 posts
Peasant

Also things like: Since we are made out of several billion (or even trillion, I forgot) cells, are we a collective conceince, much like bees? Or are we still a single being? Each one of our cells has a different specialized function with all the same instructions... So are we just 1 thing or are we 3 trillion thinking together?

This may seem like a basic Bio class at first, but I assure I make a point at the end.
Well, two things to start off with:

1) Most of our cells aren't even our cells. They are bacterial cells that reside in our body. Granted, they are quite a bit smaller than our eukaryote cells, but they still outnumber us.

2) Most of our eukaryotic cells aren't "thinking" cells (I'm heavily simplifying here, I will elaborate later). In other words, they do what they are "told" by other cells.

Cells react to stimmuli. That is what they do. How they react is dictated by their DNA. Different cells express different DNA based on which parts are expressed (controlled by methylation, acetylation etc).

In addition to responded to external stimmuli (light, sound, pain, food) cells create stimmuli for other cells to respond to.

The cells that are the best at creating stimmuli are Neurons. They communicate with other nerve cells through relativly fast synaptic transmission, and use neorutransmitters to stimulate other cells. In this way, Neurons can be thought of as "thinking" cells, because they control the processes of other cells (though they are themselves controlled by still more stimmuli).

Here's the point:
While each cell can respond independently to stimmuli (and therefore is like a hive mind), they also control each other trhough stimmuli. This means that you can't really seperate the cells into seperate free thinking entities, because each cell relies on others in order to determine what to "think" and how to act.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

That's the question isn't it? What is a soul? Many religions argue that animals lack souls, yet humans ARE animals. Also animals have their own personality and emotions as well. From a theological stand point the arguement is that a soul is self awareness. I believe the soul is an undefinable thing. Something so complex that to even to begin to understand it would create a madness. Our souls are what give us our personality, our emoion, our perspectives.

FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

I am sorry to say this, but dualism is just wishful thinking. You make some interesting points, although none of which cannot be adequately explained by the fact that humans are just incredibly complex biological machines.

thoadthetoad
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thoadthetoad
5,642 posts
Peasant

While each cell can respond independently to stimmuli (and therefore is like a hive mind), they also control each other trhough stimmuli. This means that you can't really seperate the cells into seperate free thinking entities, because each cell relies on others in order to determine what to "think" and how to act.

Uh, thank you for telling me what I've already learned.

We're Eukaryotes, y'know.
aknerd
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aknerd
1,416 posts
Peasant

We're Eukaryotes, y'know.

Thats what I said?
our eukaryotic cells



I guess I misunderstood you're original question...

Now that I have re-read your post, it seems like your "collective consciousness" was bascically refering to my basic bio lesson. By "Single Being" you were referring to something outside of the body, aka a soul, that unified the multitude of cells into one consciousness.

I thought you were talking about whether we are a colony of individual cells, or a single unified organism.

If I misunderstood you again, please correct me.
kuraikane
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kuraikane
201 posts
Nomad

The cerebrem in the brain are what lets us think logically and have more complex emotions than other oraganisms. Other organisms can't think like we do because the majority of their brain is the thalomus and hypothalamus areas of the brain, which control things like regulation and primal instincs. They have very small cerebrums compared to humans.

If your asking in the sense of the soul, I think our personalities are formed not only by our experiences in this life, but in our past lives as well. I think this influences our emotions and also in the sense of things like quirky habits. Of course, genes in our DNA also influences things like how we think, but it isn't set in stone. Our experiences build up and shape our personality.

Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
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Jester

To answer all of these (except the cloning question, since this is on a creationist level), it's recommended to learn about human anatomy and physiology.

1. The Pre-frontal Cortex is what focuses and controls a person's imagination, thinking, personality, learning, and behavior. This builds our emotions and can be shaped through various experiences, influence, and by how refined the cerebrum is. Your thinking and learning are more or less defined in your I.Q-- how well you can think and learn.

2. All cells in our body work together in pieces. You may have guessed what these pieces are: organs and organ systems. The integumentory system (skin), musculatory system (muscle fibers), and the nervous system (brains and nerves) all work through stimuli. The way we work is based on our special sense nerves, which are our 5 senses. These are the sensory input mechanisms, which transmit the stimuli to the CNS (central nervous system). From here, it interprets the information and decides what action to do. With this, the use of the nerves and muscles come into play. It sends stimuli to various parts of the body to do the action, depending on the kind of action that it is. Just as what Aknerd explained, all our cells respond to various stimuli, all working as pieces of the body, then to one whole being.

3. Our cerebrum is more refined and stronger than other species. Our evolutionary line has undergone more CNS development than others. Out of this line, we as one species has undergone the most development and we are still developing further. Why other species do not have as refined brains as we do is simple. We physically do not have a means of survival, so our environment calls upon mental thinking in order for us to survive. We are not the kind of animal to go out into the wilderness to hunt and gather unarmed and defenseless. We are the kind of animals that work best in groups, in a society. And since our minds have developed more, OUR means of survival has been strengthened over the years. How do you think an animal like a ferocious man-eating lion survives? It has claws and teeth. If his survival mechanisms are working to the expectations of its environment, it will survive, reproduce, and pass on the traits of pwnage to its children so they could pwn the environment more. We are doing the same with our minds. Since we require our minds to survive, those who can do this well will survive and reproduce. Of course not in this generation, since our lives are basically handed to us, but still!

thoadthetoad
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thoadthetoad
5,642 posts
Peasant

You see, freakenstein, it works perfectly with what you said.

In a scientific sense.

I try and figure out how it works with both Theological and Scientific parts conjoined.

Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

So how would 2 and 3 work? I already know with one that every man and woman have their own personal souls so they would have similar, yet individual personalities. So how would souls control the cells, when the CNS and PNS already do this? Why would souls determine if our cerebrum is refined or not refined at all? Does this have a correlation with the everlasting rhetoric that every living organism besides humans have souls because we are believed to be superior? Because God purposely made us superior? Where does theology fit in with the anatomy and physiology of a human?

Maverick5762
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Maverick5762
240 posts
Peasant

Well it's tough to mix Biology (A science with observable results) and Theology (Just as believable as any made up shit).
It doesn't work well to try to apply a scientific method to something which cannot be measured or observed...

thoadthetoad
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thoadthetoad
5,642 posts
Peasant

So how would 2 and 3 work? I already know with one that every man and woman have their own personal souls so they would have similar, yet individual personalities. So how would souls control the cells, when the CNS and PNS already do this? Why would souls determine if our cerebrum is refined or not refined at all? Does this have a correlation with the everlasting rhetoric that every living organism besides humans have souls because we are believed to be superior? Because God purposely made us superior? Where does theology fit in with the anatomy and physiology of a human?

Questions that I ponder everyday!
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