I think that examining how dogmatically one holds faith is very important. This comes as a response to a statement made by Moegreche regarding faith. I think his post sums up a lot of common arguments, so let's take a look:
''We believe what is presented before us. Now, maybe later on we get evidence that is incompatible with our belief and then we can assess whether or not to abandon that belief. I think it's hard to fault someone who was raised in a religious environment and counts certain experiences as God's love for them. It's what their environment surrounds them with, so their belief is completely understandable (to me, at least).''
I was talking to my brother the other day (who is devoutly Greek Orthodox) and I stumbled on a question I htought would be interesting: ''If someone had a time machine and could take you back to 33 AD and showed you that Jesus' ressurection took place, would you stop believing in Christ?'' Keep in mind that the resurrection is the cornerstone to the salvation described in Christianity. Unsurprising to me, he replied he didn't know what he would do (he has very good reasons for believing, trust me), but for others who haven't been through the experiences he has, I'm wondering whether your response would be similar, which would make me question why exactly you believe in Christianity in the first place.
So the question I ask, is what point of logical, or objective proof must one reach to fundamentally change another's faith/belief where applicable (whether it be Christian, Muslim, agnostic, atheist etc.)? Or are there too many irrational emotions involved in this part of human decision making?
Other than merely answering those questions, I would like everyone to state their faith and what the threshold of it would be. I will start.
I am an agnostic atheist. It would take objective proof of the existence of a deity to convince me. Scientific inconsistencies and gaps in human knowledge about the origins of the universe really don't annoy me, as practically everything in this universe within the realm of human knowledge has been explained using scientific method, and the things which haven't been explained are being worked on.
Yes worshiping and believing are difference things. If it was demonstrated that God was real through objective evidence I would believe, but weather that God is deserving of worship or not is another story completely. If this being is as described in the Bible, I'm not sure I would.
So you wouldn't worship the person that created the world, humans, and free will. And the person that, by worshiping, you will be saved from damnation?
So you wouldn't worship the person that created the world, humans, and free will. And the person that, by worshiping, you will be saved from ****ation?
Not if he committed the atrocities depicted in the Bible.
So you wouldn't worship the person that created the world, humans, and free will. And the person that, by worshiping, you will be saved from ****ation?
Not if he committed the atrocities depicted in the Bible.
It's not even necessary to go that far. If this deity isn't going to judge me for the actions and decisions I made in life from a moral viewpoint in order to decide whether I'm going to heaven or hell and just bases his judgment on the amount of worshiping instead, is it even worthy of worshiping?
Sorry to jump in on the middle of this, and also Firefly, this is not my response to your post, yet. Just something I am having trouble wrapping my head around.
So, first, I will give an abstract of my belief system: It changes daily. I hold everything in theory and leave it that way. Yes, this has agnostic qualities, I know. There are so many notions and theories for existential questions that I refuse to choose just one. I really just try to step back from it and watch.
Now, Mage posted this:
3.Miracles occurring especially brought about through prayer. This would defiantly be good evidence. We should see a consistent improvement in believers over non believers that can be directly linked to prayer in matters of harmed and healing. Something happening that couldn't happen without intervention that would be beyond our ability that has a direct link to prayer. Such as a person praying/being prayed for and their lost limb regrows. Of course this has to be verified and documented by an external source and not just someones word.
This area has always been a bugger for me. Before you understand where I am coming from, please strip down all religious relations regarding prayer. Just turn it into working with your consciousness to make something happen.
That is what intrigues me. It's Noetics. Link: here
(I know you think it's a bunch of horse's poop, Mage) But my personal experiences and some articles I've read are really convincing to me. I feel that our consciousness is just as unexplained as the notion of god.
redace, now exactly how does that prove god is real?
If you were in a time machine and saw Creation exactly like the bible said it happened, Saw Jesus in Israel making blind people see, Etc. I think that might prove God is real.
That kind of crosses some lines of logic, I think. If god is outside of space and time. And going along with the notion that god is the prime mover, then going back to the moment of creation would be futile. You can only view existence already, not before.
That kind of crosses some lines of logic, I think. If god is outside of space and time. And going along with the notion that god is the prime mover, then going back to the moment of creation would be futile. You can only view existence already, not before.
Not if he committed the atrocities depicted in the Bible.
And I suppose all the good things He did don't count? I hate when people do that. When they only look at the negative and not the positive. I prefer to see the cup as half full. You see it half empty. However, regardless of what you might think about whether or not God deserves your worship is not matter to Him, as you'll just go to Hell and then you can be Satan's problem.(I know, a little harsh) =p
And I suppose all the good things He did don't count?
???
I dont think you would say this to someone who murdered indescriminatly! Eh!?!
If you were in a time machine and saw Creation exactly like the bible said it happened, Saw Jesus in Israel making blind people see, Etc. I think that might prove God is real.
Nice idea, but still doesnt prove god is real. Could still be aliens, lol.
And I suppose all the good things He did don't count? I hate when people do that. When they only look at the negative and not the positive. I prefer to see the cup as half full. You see it half empty. However, regardless of what you might think about whether or not God deserves your worship is not matter to Him, as you'll just go to Hell and then you can be Satan's problem.(I know, a little harsh) =p
Then I guess we will have to get our iron chariots and Satan and attack said deity... VIVIA LA VIVA!
On a serious note, if someone lived a perfect life and ended up killing a random person, then they would be considered bad. What your deity did may be considered better, though his crimes worse, ending up in murdering millions of innocents.
Nice idea, but still doesnt prove god is real. Could still be aliens, lol.
It was in response to another post.
On a serious note, if someone lived a perfect life and ended up killing a random person, then they would be considered bad. What your deity did may be considered better, though his crimes worse, ending up in murdering millions of innocents.
Those that God killed are those that deserved to be killed.
Those that God killed are those that deserved to be killed.
Yes. Such as those evil scouts who gave a truthful report, or the first born Egyptians that did nothing. And those kids who made fun of the bald guy. And....
