I think that examining how dogmatically one holds faith is very important. This comes as a response to a statement made by Moegreche regarding faith. I think his post sums up a lot of common arguments, so let's take a look:
''We believe what is presented before us. Now, maybe later on we get evidence that is incompatible with our belief and then we can assess whether or not to abandon that belief. I think it's hard to fault someone who was raised in a religious environment and counts certain experiences as God's love for them. It's what their environment surrounds them with, so their belief is completely understandable (to me, at least).''
I was talking to my brother the other day (who is devoutly Greek Orthodox) and I stumbled on a question I htought would be interesting: ''If someone had a time machine and could take you back to 33 AD and showed you that Jesus' ressurection took place, would you stop believing in Christ?'' Keep in mind that the resurrection is the cornerstone to the salvation described in Christianity. Unsurprising to me, he replied he didn't know what he would do (he has very good reasons for believing, trust me), but for others who haven't been through the experiences he has, I'm wondering whether your response would be similar, which would make me question why exactly you believe in Christianity in the first place.
So the question I ask, is what point of logical, or objective proof must one reach to fundamentally change another's faith/belief where applicable (whether it be Christian, Muslim, agnostic, atheist etc.)? Or are there too many irrational emotions involved in this part of human decision making?
Other than merely answering those questions, I would like everyone to state their faith and what the threshold of it would be. I will start.
I am an agnostic atheist. It would take objective proof of the existence of a deity to convince me. Scientific inconsistencies and gaps in human knowledge about the origins of the universe really don't annoy me, as practically everything in this universe within the realm of human knowledge has been explained using scientific method, and the things which haven't been explained are being worked on.
Yes. That could have happened. But this wasn't just one person. Multiple people saw him.
How many people can you count who have reported seeing Elvis alive and well? I've even seen pictures of a guy who some people claim is Elvis living under a new name.
How many people can you count who have reported seeing Elvis alive and well? I've even seen pictures of a guy who some people claim is Elvis living under a new name.
Those are people who are just seeing look-a-likes. What are the chances that all of Jesus' disciples saw a look-alike Jesus in such a short time period, and that this look-alike talked to them and had the same exact voice and knew all their names?
So..how does one legitly predict a person's death when they haven't even existed yet? I could predict that my grandson is going to die, and I would be correct too.
Those are people who are just seeing look-a-likes. What are the chances that all of Jesus' disciples saw a look-alike Jesus in such a short time period, and that this look-alike talked to them and had the same exact voice and knew all their names?
Same way Freakenstiens relative could hold a phone conversation with dead uncle Donnie.
Same way Freakenstiens relative could hold a phone conversation with dead uncle Donnie.
Once again, these were MULTIPLE people. That many people aren't all going to have the same illusions going on at the same time. Especially since some of these people were with other people at the time and those other people saw Him too.
Once again, these were MULTIPLE people. That many people aren't all going to have the same illusions going on at the same time. Especially since some of these people were with other people at the time and those other people saw Him too.
Like those at the witch hunts? These are hundreds of people I'm talking about in this case, and they all believed that these girls were being possessed by witches.
What are the chances that all of Jesus' disciples saw a look-alike Jesus in such a short time period, and that this look-alike talked to them and had the same exact voice and knew all their names?
I think you just may have provided an explanation as to why the people thought Jesus rose from the dead, Possum.
I would just like to point out that no disciples believed Jesus would rise from the dead and many were terrified by his appearance also Mary saw an angel and an empty tomb as Jesus wouldn't return to heaven in 30 days.
These are hundreds of people I'm talking about in this case, and they all believed that these girls were being possessed by witches.
It was actually young girls thinking that old men or women who were very seldom involved in social activities were up to with-craft.
I think you just may have provided an explanation as to why the people thought Jesus rose from the dead, Possum.
But this doesn't make sense, thinking that someone is a Jesus look-alike is complete blasphemy, doesn't that go against the whole idea of christianity?
Like those at the witch hunts? These are hundreds of people I'm talking about in this case, and they all believed that these girls were being possessed by witches.
Of course they did. Those girls were still alive. And they were faking it on purpose. They even admitted to faking it.
But this doesn't make sense, thinking that someone is a Jesus look-alike is complete blasphemy, doesn't that go against the whole idea of christianity?
Uh... no. It's not blasphemy if someone just happens to look like Jesus...
Once again, these were MULTIPLE people. That many people aren't all going to have the same illusions going on at the same time. Especially since some of these people were with other people at the time and those other people saw Him too.
So even if this being claiming to be God took you to a lab and demonstrated his abilities by doing something only God could do under controlled conditions in front of other people and it was well documented you would still just regard yourself as crazy?
Absolutely. It just seems far more reasonable that I either am being deceived or have become delusional. I realize my stance is somewhat problematic, but that's honestly how I feel. Call me a bad cognitive agent or whatever for discounting evidence that's right in front of me, but I'm going to go with the explanation that seems the most reasonable to me.
I don't agree with this. A theory is an explanation of why. The observed facts are the how. This statement this guy made of why and how on religion and science isn't new at all.
Yeah, I think you're right. I just thought of this because of the conclusion that I drew from it. Perhaps no scientific evidence whatsoever can breach the divide between faith and reason - at least not in principle. I realize this claim is quite contentious, but maybe it would be a nice conversation restarter to get this thread back on topic :P
I am an atheist. Besides proof of God I would have to be shown proof that god is all loving, all knowing and all powerful. My views of god are one where God is a tyrant. I would need to have this proven otherwise for me even to consider any form of religion.
Call me a bad cognitive agent or whatever for discounting evidence that's right in front of me, but I'm going to go with the explanation that seems the most reasonable to me.
That seems like a rather closed minded stance to take.
I am an atheist. Besides proof of God I would have to be shown proof that god is all loving, all knowing and all powerful. My views of god are one where God is a tyrant. I would need to have this proven otherwise for me even to consider any form of religion.
Yes worshiping and believing are difference things. If it was demonstrated that God was real through objective evidence I would believe, but weather that God is deserving of worship or not is another story completely. If this being is as described in the Bible, I'm not sure I would.
