There have been so many interesting topics and conversations in these threads about God, but they end up just going in circles - mostly because those on opposite sides tend to talk past one another. So, to facilitate this excellent dialogue while giving a bit more guidance to the conversation, I (per request) will moderate some discussion. First, some rules:
- Because most of us are familiar with a western notion of God, our conversation will be limited to this kind of God, unless otherwise specified. - We need to separate the philosophy from the religion. Whatever crimes or irrationality you think a particular group is guilty of doesn't matter here. We're only concerned with arguments. - Keep to the conversation at hand, and please just ignore those that clearly haven't read the topic introduction.
Ideally, this topic will generate discussion in a particular area until whoever is moderating the discussion feels like the dialogue has run its course. At that point, a new topic will be introduced.
So, first topic:
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God? So, assuming God does not exist and society recognizes this, would human life have some intrinsic worth? And would this affect arguments against, say, euthanasia, abortion, or suicide? Perhaps we only have some worth because we think we do, but that's where it ends. Does this line of thought pose any problems? What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?
Actually people who are pro life have kept it back but now we've found a way both ethical and effective because of the pressure of those that are pro life its a win win situation.
One of the main pro-life arguments was religion.
I think your confusing being religious with being an extremist. I don't call out atheists with flaws why should you call out theists?
I would consider anyone who follows the Christian Bible to be religious, thus that is my bases for a religious person.
Please, if you find any flaws with the concept of atheism please point it out.
Why is it so hard for you to see the GOOD that religion has done for humans as a species? So what it gives people another reason to kill each-other, it also gives people reasons not to.
True, most modern Christians follow the ten commandments and whatever the preachers say and call themselves Christian, but the Bible basically says to kill anyone who doesn't/does something, as well as providing an outdated set of guidelines. Example? Sex. The Bible has killed numerous people for having sex and even states that Christians are supposed to stone those who do. Back a few hundred years ago that was good advice, as it prevented STDs and unplanned births, but in modern day were there is ample protection then it is fine and not morally wrong at all.
It's also aided the diffusion of a great many ideas and inventions, though subtly.
True, but it has held back just as many and not more. I will go further in the past to point out that people were KILLED for believing in the scientific fact that males had an even number of ribs, since Christians believed Eve was born of Adam's ribs and that they were molded after Adam thus are missing a rib. There are many more examples, ask if you wish for them.
*Will correct mistakes tomorrow*
Nothing to correct, aside from different prospective that you already admitted exists even within the divided house of Christianity.
314d1 you stand behind a monitor mocking those who are having a morally correct debate about the said topic. Now, by entering a thread entitled the debate of god. you are most likely one of the following
I try to do a minimum of mocking, but it gets humerus at times and I can't help it. It is like tying to watch Barny without making fun of it.
So pick your choice. But do not come in to a friendly debate with a hardened heart my friend. A debate turns into an argument when one has a unwilling heart. Not to change or "converge" to another religion. But to merely view and analyze the wisdom of another individual with open eyes.
Are you saying my circulatory system has a problem? Never mind, I just remembered the out of date theory stated by the Bible that emotions come from the heart when they really come from the brain...
Yes, I would say that I have a "Hardened heart". I analyze the religion and come up with a logical answer, how does that make me a problem, and P.S, an argument and debate are synonyms. Proof
To truly be the judge for yourself whether God exists is up to you. To come up with a verdict you have to listen to both sides and all evidence...Openly!
This is scientific. It is not a matter of belief, but cold hard fact. I listen to the other side, and would take in evidence if they had any. Your alphabet soup spelling out "Cod" witch is only a little off from "God" is not proof.
A judicial court judge does not listen to one side that he/she favors and block out the other.. How will an unbiased verdict be made?
Of course not. But they can look at the facts. If one person states that they were robbed but the other states that he was having a party in candy land with the pixies, it would be likely they would favor the logical person, who then would provide evidence stating that the house had been robbed by the person.
I'm asking nicely if you would just hear us out and open your cranial cavity and expand your knowledge of both sides. Only then can a clear judgement be made. Not by us, but by you. Believing and understanding are two different things. Knowledge of God, believing in it or not, will not affect you. What fears do you hold?
Nice nice. "Your an ass. Now open your circulatory system and listen to what I am saying!"
I know more then most Christians do about the Bible and the Biblical god. I know enough to realize that a majority of it is foolish and unscientific, not to mention violent and promoting(if not ordering) violence.
Clarification please? I didn't know Christianity has changed.
Do you poses untold knowledge of this "un-modern" Christianity?
Or is this, an exaggerated understatement?
Yes, I actually do. In the dark ages(Witch some people say was brought by Christianity) people were orthodox about the Bible. If you did anything the bible says that you should be stoned for, then you were stoned. The Church had more power then the king, who was only put in power because the people believed that god chose him. If you were not Christian than you were dead.The Bible was considered the last word and any science that went against it would be covered up and ignored. That sounds like a radical difference then the red word crowd we have now a days.
I know more then most Christians do about the Bible and the Biblical god. I know enough to realize that a majority of it is foolish and unscientific, not to mention violent and promoting(if not ordering) violence.
If this were true you would not be here persisting to spit in the faces of those who hold religion dear to their heart.
You act as if this is a gem to you. That your point must be made. Mocking others, belittling them, and purposely pushing and prodding is the exact opposite of what someone would do if they have knowledge of biblical teachings.
I'm not doubting you have biblical knowledge, but do you understand it?
There is no part in speaking to a wall. Nor will I try to climb it. I will simply sit twenty feet away and watch as you continue your ways.
your mockery is not wanted. Implementing it into a debate of God is down right despicable.
I know more then most Christians do about the Bible and the Biblical god. I know enough to realize that a majority of it is foolish and unscientific, not to mention violent and promoting(if not ordering) violence.
Then my friend you know nothing of the heart of God and therefore nothing of God. Wisdom and faith go hand in hand and one cannot grow without the other.
If this were true you would not be here persisting to spit in the faces of those who hold religion dear to their heart.
Just wish to point out that it is mind, not the outdated science that you stated.
You act as if this is a gem to you. That your point must be made. Mocking others, belittling them, and purposely pushing and prodding is the exact opposite of what someone would do if they have knowledge of biblical teachings.
I have knowledge of Biblical teachings. Most of them, especially in the old testament, are immoral by today's standards. If you have been listening to the priests they always either point out something good that he did or glorify something bad. For example, have you ever heard the story of two men who were burned to death for burning incense, and there father was not aloud to morn them or he would die? Moses stated it was to glorify god. Can you see were this is morally wrong?
I'm not doubting you have biblical knowledge, but do you understand it?
I understand it fine. I read it differently than you do though, as I may be biased to my side, but you are biased to yours. You take everything with a positive meaning while I take it with the negative that it is.
There is no part in speaking to a wall. Nor will I try to climb it. I will simply sit twenty feet away and watch as you continue your ways.
All my points have been legitimate, if somewhat hostile. But as for you, you have brought this troll crap here. It is pure flame and does nothing to the debate.
Then my friend you know nothing of the heart of God and therefore nothing of God. Wisdom and faith go hand in hand and one cannot grow without the other.
First, if he is not made of flesh then he has no circulatory system. Second, there is the little outdated fact that the heart does not send emotions. Third, I would be considered wise by many. I have an internship at the lab, witch many would consider that it takes a good degree of wisdom to do and I am faithless. I am just as wise, if not wiser, then the average Christian.
Samy, are you just afraid to answer to my post that I asked you to answer? Over an hour ago you said that you couldn't answer because you had to go to bed, yet you are up posting. If you are not actually going to sleep, could you get us back on track and argue my points?
Ha; you honestly know nothing about humans do you? You can't even understand or except symbolism and you claim to be wise? Even in your claim to wisdom your showing foolish pride and somehow believing that wisdom is intelligence at the same time. You need a healthy dose of the humanities in your life.
Oh and you need to realise that you have a propensity to both troll and flame when someone disagrees with you slightly.
Ha; you honestly know nothing about humans do you? You can't even understand or except symbolism and you claim to be wise? Even in your claim to wisdom your showing foolish pride and somehow believing that wisdom is intelligence at the same time. You need a healthy dose of the humanities in your life.
I understand it perfectly, but you seem to not get the concept of a joke. The symbolic phrase "Comes from the heart" is based of the Bible, witch based off what they believed was a fact. The noticed that the heart beats faster or slower with certain emotions, thus drew the false conclusion that emotions come from the heart. When they put it in the bible, they thought it was scientifically correct. I was using it to show that they had false beliefs that are shown in the bible.
Okay I might as well touch on a few things before the topic get's routed to a change for being away from the OP (To bad it was getting to be more engaging off topic then on.)
Context doesn't take a passage at face value but digs underneath for meaning and understanding.
It was seem as indicated by more denominations of Christianity then there are individual religions, that by doing this you can get the passages to mean pretty much anything.
1) Devout believer in any religion that their is a supreme entity. God
2) Your pure atheist with a hardened hard walled up with concrete.
3) An insecure individual seeking answers.
This is really an over generalization. A person doesn't have to be devout to believe in God, an atheist can have more "heart" then a whole church full of Christians, a person doesn't have to be insecure to wish to seek answers.
Wisdom and faith go hand in hand and one cannot grow without the other.
Seeing as faith is belief without proof, how can that possibly go hand and hand with wisdom? Yes faith can give the illusion of deep understanding, but without something definitive to back it up (evidence) all it is is an assertion being held as true. If you do have something definitive backing up your belief, it has a hard time being called faith.
Okay I await the topic change....
Just a suggestion since "You don't understand my side" has been batted around quite a bit, maybe a topic dealing with forming an understanding might be in order.
