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Asherlee
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Asherlee
5,001 posts
Shepherd

Truth

1. (a) archaic : fidelity, constancy
1. (b) : sincerity in action, character, and utterance

2. (a) (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality
2. (b) : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics>
2. (c) : the body of true statements and propositions

3. (a) : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality
3. (b) chiefly British : true 2
3. (c) : fidelity to an original or to a standard

M-W Dictionary

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I'd like to discuss Truth with my fellow WEPRegs. Lately, we've had a lot of debates and it seems like it always boils down to the fundamentals.
One of these fundamentals is truth. So, I'll start with some basic questions to kick us off.

1. What are truths?

2. What, if anything, makes them true?

3. Is there such a thing as subjective truth?


Now, there are MANY theories of truth and this can go much deeper. So, let's start here.

  • 24 Replies
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

As much as I love the debate of truth I'm finding it extremely hard to come up with a post fitting my beliefs. I believe that some of our existence is made up of objective truths (i.e. the world is spherical) or more specifically scientific truths that have been tested and proven. As it's been noted the objective truths are what affect our existence (I can sail around the world, I wont meet a giant wall of ice) but are they what define it and in that what is more important what is true or what we believe is true?

Now from what I know of the majority of our members the answer will be what is true, for where would we be if we were content with what we believed and didn't strive to find the objective truth? And I agree. But I feel like the massive importance of what we believe to be true cannot be overlooked as it affects how we act. That is if I understand gravity it will effect me, if I don't and attempt to fly it will effect me but my actions were caused by what I believed or; moreover, didn't know. So for scientific truth, or truth that can be proven true, objective truth clearly exists but- in my opinion- the "truth" believed by an individual is still vital to society.

Proceeding onwards we have to ask ourselves what defines a definition? What is tall, what is big, what is rich? This comes from our understanding of our world and the circumstances we were raised in. A specific example I'm 6' 2" and because of that I may think that a 5' 10" individual is short while that individual may believe that a 5' 6" individual is short, etc. The definition of the these words isn't definite it's subjective; the truth is subjective.

How about objective and subjective truth? For example I am a human but what is a human? Is it defined biologically or philosophically? I have to determine why and how I am a human as do you, we may come up with different reasons therefore ending at the same objective truth through subjective paths.

Obviously opinions are subjective but can the be considered subjective truths? Are they simply opinions are because they are correct to you do they find themselves being truth; subjectively?

Sorry if my thoughts don't seem extremely well connected, it was more of a constant stream of thought than a well planned post.

crazyrussian97
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crazyrussian97
256 posts
Shepherd

Even the definition of truth is subjective because people can choose to define it in many ways. There is no, say, magical rock into which the absolute definition of truth is carved into. Everyone decides for themselves what it is. After a while debating strips many concepts down to nothing but words, existing only in name and opinions.

samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

Even the definition of truth is subjective because people can choose to define it in many ways. There is no, say, magical rock into which the absolute definition of truth is carved into. Everyone decides for themselves what it is.


I knew I forgot something and I agree completely. It creates somewhat of a paradox.
crazyrussian97
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crazyrussian97
256 posts
Shepherd

Slightly off-topic but has anyone seen The Invention of Lying? It was a great movie and I guarantee that fellow atheists will get a kick out of it.

samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

The Invention of Lying? It was a great movie and I guarantee that fellow atheists will get a kick out of it.


I saw it when I was a Christian, it was my first strike xD
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Unless i bring the alien forth and prove it, its fiction.


It wouldn't necessarily be fiction, but without evidence we would not have any reason to believe it wasn't.

in my opinion- the "truth" believed by an individual is still vital to society.


That's not truth just opinion.

A specific example I'm 6' 2" and because of that I may think that a 5' 10" individual is short while that individual may believe that a 5' 6" individual is short, etc. The definition of the these words isn't definite it's subjective; the truth is subjective.


That would be relativity not subjectivity. In your example we have a frame of reference in witch we can objectively define short.

How about objective and subjective truth? For example I am a human but what is a human? Is it defined biologically or philosophically? I have to determine why and how I am a human as do you, we may come up with different reasons therefore ending at the same objective truth through subjective paths.


The term human from a biological perspective as referring to the genus Homo especially Homo Sapien then yes it is a truth you are human. From a philosophical perspective referring to ones behavior, this would be subjective and not a truth but an opinion.

Even the definition of truth is subjective because people can choose to define it in many ways.


Most of these come from philosophical perspectives and most branches of philosophy have no real application.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

That's not truth just opinion.


Not really, it's more of a societal truth.

From a philosophical perspective referring to ones behavior, this would be subjective and not a truth but an opinion.


No, it's individual truth the difference in an pinion you recognize that what you think is only an opinion individual truth means you know something to be true although it cannot be objectively proven.

Most of these come from philosophical perspectives and most branches of philosophy have no real application.


No application? The application of thought? That's like saying science has no application as it's a purist pursuit although the information gleamed can be used to further technology. The information from philosophy can lead to reformed ways of thinking and understanding.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

Any scientific laws are truths, I can tell ya that right now.


These seem like pretty good candidates for truth. As do analytic truths, like all bachelors are unmarried males. But just for fun, I'm going to play the role of a Quinean (well, really a neo-Quinean).

So, for your philosophical enjoyment, I posit the following:

No proposition can be true simply by itself, but only when understood within a framework of other beliefs. It's how the beliefs fit together, or cohere, that makes them true.
Now I'm not appealing to some higher notion of truth, some meta-assessment of propositions. Such talk is absolute nonsense. How would we go about comparing some ordinary proposition to this higher order standard?
It seems like what philosophers who are concerned with truth are really worried about is whether a belief can turn out to be false. As a principled account, this would only leave us with necessary truths, which would result in severe skepticism. They could also mean certain token beliefs that couldn't be wrong in the actual world. But this looks more like a waiting game, where a cognitive agent might refuse to assent to a proposition until it's certainty in the actual world were somehow assured.
The problem with all this is that it's fundamentally flawed. There's no such thing a necessary truth. Think I'm crazy? Consider Euclid's Parallel Postulate.
If you don't know EPP, then a quick Google search will fill you in. Needless to say, for quite some time, this looked for all the world to be a necessary truth. Until, that is, non-Euclidean geometries started sprouting up!
Even a "necessary truth" like 2+2=4 is only true in virtue of our stipulations of what "2", "+", "=", and "4" mean. And if these statements are merely stipulations, then they don't tell us how the world actually is. I think you may be hard-pressed to show a statement like that is even a genuine proposition.

We must be ready, at any moment, to give up even our most core beliefs. There are certain truths upon which many other truths are founded. But if those core beliefs end up being replaced by a more effective, coherent system that has more explanatory power, then we should welcome the change.
So, while truth certainly isn't relative - it's also not certain.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Not really, it's more of a societal truth.


How is it a truth? If I were to state that I think killing criminals is wrong or in your example if I were to say gravity doesn't effect me, then I am simply stating my opinion. Yes my beliefs can effect my actions but this alone does not make what I believe true.

No, it's individual truth the difference in an pinion you recognize that what you think is only an opinion individual truth means you know something to be true although it cannot be objectively proven.


Maybe we are not on the same page here?
I don't see how your statement here applies to your example. What what I was saying about it referring to behavior correct to what you were referring to? If so this is just opinion.
For example, some people would regard a serial killer to not be human because of there actions. Others would still regard them to be human. These are opinions.

No application? The application of thought? That's like saying science has no application as it's a purist pursuit although the information gleamed can be used to further technology. The information from philosophy can lead to reformed ways of thinking and understanding.


First off I said most not all, there are branches that are very useful. Second science is a branch of philosophy. Much of it I don't see as even being useful for reforming ways of thinking, at least in no useful way.
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