ForumsWEPRFaith?

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Why is faith (belief without proof) a good thing? Also How is it a reliable way of gauging reality?

I think these are important questions considering theists often say we need to take God's existence on faith.

In fact in the Bible requiring evidence is somehow regarded as a lesser trait. One glaring example of this is in the story where Thomas doubts Jesus's resurrection.


John 20:25-29 (NIV)
So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

As we can see the blessed are those who believed without proof. pushing forth the idea that questioning a claim and requesting evidence is some how lesser stance.

I think this story also draws a number of parallels with the typical argument we see between theists and atheists.

Theist: Believe in God.
Atheist: What proof is there for God's existence?
Theist: There is no proof you just have to take in on faith. Or like in the story above they site some personal experience that proved it to them but expect atheists to go on faith alone.

This often goes around in circles, but I would like to take a different slant on it. If I am expected to believe based on faith alone I first want to know why this is such a superior methodology.

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Cinna
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Cinna
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Nomad

wait...god killed your guinea pig? -.-


http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/Nurvana/guineapigandcat.jpg

I don't think that's how it happened...
314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

hmm... well i have faith that their's dragons and magic in the world. as for things like god, i'm meh on that. *burns hand with magic again* and as for hell, ear.... OWWW!!! *quickly puts the fire out* anyway... earth is hell to me. or at least being trapped. *looks to the skies and dreams of flying.* i also have faith that it's possible to have past lives. make of that what you will.


Out of that I would assume...Schizophrenia...
loloynage2
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loloynage2
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Peasant

I don't think that's how it happened...


ugh....O.0
sonicheroes95
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sonicheroes95
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Peasant

schizophrenia? say what?


as for my hands, sometimes it's like they get set on fire. (then again, i burn up easy, so...)

314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

Schizophrenia. Good luck with it... Or drug problems. Either way...

sonicheroes95
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sonicheroes95
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Peasant

i have neither. i sometimes just post something random in my posts.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Knowledge creates reality, there is an over bearing reality that all of us exist in but as our knowledge only extends to some parts of reality it is subjective to the individual. I live inside my own reality as does everyone else, no one lives by knowledge they don't have.


Knowledge doesn't determine what is. Just because we perceive something one way doesn't mean that it is that way. What we know or can know and how is different from what is and occurs. Just like how believing in pink unicorns doesn't automatically cause pink unicorns to spring into existence. Just as if there were pink unicorns in reality not believing in them won't make them blip out of existence.

faith is good because it gives you hope.if you dont have hope.


Okay I suppose that is one good point. How about my second question how is faith a reliable way to gauge reality. Also why couldn't we derive hope from empirical observations rather then things with no proof?

hmm... well i have faith that their's dragons and magic in the world. as for things like god, i'm meh on that. *burns hand with magic again* and as for hell, ear.... OWWW!!! *quickly puts the fire out* anyway... earth is hell to me. or at least being trapped. *looks to the skies and dreams of flying.* i also have faith that it's possible to have past lives. make of that what you will.


I found losing superstitious beliefs helped alleviate such feelings.
Cinna
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Cinna
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Nomad

I found losing superstitious beliefs helped alleviate such feelings.


http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/Nurvana/lolcatsdotcomthrkt18ogucu1b95.jpg
MRWalker82
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Shepherd

http://unreasonablefaith.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/atheist_cat.jpg

Seriously, faith without a foundation in fact is nothing but superstition. Believing in deities is no different than believing in ghosts, vampires, werewolves, boogey men, extraterrestrial kidnappers, Santa Claus, or any of the other obvious superstitions.

The only difference I've found is that most people are willing to admit that they know these are superstitions, regardless of whether or not they like to believe in them. However with religion everyone seems to think that by admitting that it's just a bunch of superstition that somehow everything will fall apart.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but it doesn't, and it won't. In fact I have found myself much happier and that I have far more meaningful relationships, conversation, and more valuable social interactions since I've admitted that I knew religion was just superstition and started treating it as such.

Cinna
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Cinna
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Nomad

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/Nurvana/funny-pictures-ten-commandments-of-ceiling-cat.jpg

The entertainment of this is concerning.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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This was written by logantheking. I'm not sure why he decided to post his reply on my board instead of here, maybe because he didn't want to defend it. I have a number of opposing points I can make, but I would like everyone's take on what he said first.

You do raise a good point about faith alone being difficult to comprehend.
Faith by definition is basically believing in someone or something unconditionally, the opposite of faith is knowledge, because if you know it to be true then it is not faith as the passage from John 20 about Thomas showed. As several people mentioned in your thread, they have faith in scientists to tell the truth. There is also the example of almost no one ever checks to make sure a chair will hold them, or the plane will fly, the building is structurally sound etc.
Faith as it is refereed to by most theists is belief in Whoever is the truth and it is usually mutually exclusive.
You said quote "As we can see the blessed are those who believed without proof. pushing forth the idea that questioning a claim and requesting evidence is some how lesser stance."
I disagree, the Bible(which is what I believe) says(Para-phrasing) that we should examine our beliefs to see if they match up with what we see in the world.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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As several people mentioned in your thread, they have faith in scientists to tell the truth. There is also the example of almost no one ever checks to make sure a chair will hold them, or the plane will fly, the building is structurally sound etc.


This is faith based on evidence though, not faith without evidence. We have faith in chairs because we have experienced them, observed them, and tested them. Sure they may break from time to time and we will fall, or we may tip them over, but we know that the overwhelming majority of the time they work like we expect them to.

Religious faith is a completely different brand. It's not faith in religion based on experience, but based on desire. People believe in Heaven and divine forgiveness because they want to.

I disagree, the Bible(which is what I believe) says(Para-phrasing) that we should examine our beliefs to see if they match up with what we see in the world.


In some places it does, and then in others it says the opposite. So again, who has the guidebook that tells us which parts of the Bible are right? How do we know which part to believe in cases of contradiction, or which stories are literal or metaphor? The fact is that no one knows, as there is no guidebook so it amounts to people interpreting things the way they want to. This isn't how one treats truth, this is how one would treat conjecture and superstition.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
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If I am expected to believe based on faith alone I first want to know why this is such a superior methodology.


First off, this is a really great topic. Haven't seen a good one for a while :P

When talking about faith, we need to explicate and limit the discussion. Since the quote you gave in the OP talks about Jesus, it makes sense to limit the discussion to a traditional Christian conception of faith.
That being said, we need to define faith - or at least explicate it in terms that are palatable to Christian theologians.
The problem with the conversation I've seen so far is that it doesn't follow the traditional Christian concept of faith, which has both a non-cognitive and cognitive component.
The non-cognitive component generally involves something like love or trust. Martin Luther, for example, thought it was trust in God's perfection and love for humanity. Leibniz, a Lutheran who was more Catholic in his theology, though this component was love. The non-cognitive component is typically manifested in the works of the faithful - helping others, loving God, etc. This is the "important" part of faith - the part that is necessary for true salvation. It is said that even the devils in hell believe in God, but because they lack the non-cognitive component of faith, they cannot be saved.
Many of the attacks I've seen on this thread against faith are leveled against this non-cognitive component. But the cognitive component is just as important. It is a necessary condition for the trust and love in God to manifest itself.
The cognitive component is going to come down to justification for the belief in God. Now, many theologians say that God's existence is a given and trying to argue for His existence is silly. They say that His existence is so apparent that those who don't recognize it are lacking some sort of cognitive faculty. Calvinist, for example, believe is something called a divine sense (or something like that). The idea is that this is an epistemic faculty, like sight or hearing, that allows the perceiver to recognize God's existence. Those who don't believe lack this faculty and, thus, are considered to have some cognitive deficit.
But many other theologians claim that our beliefs must be justified. There are certain truths, such as the divine mysteries (e.g. the mystery of the Holy Trinity) that are beyond human reason. But that's not to say that they are contrary to reason.
Leibniz and Luther would both say that our religious beliefs must conform to reason. In other words, they cannot generate logical contradictions. These beliefs must also be compatible with our empirical evidence and knowledge.
The issue is incredibly complex, and I'm afraid I just don't have the time to lay out the details here. Also the fact that I'm an atheist makes it doubly hard to fairly represent these views. But I thought laying out some basic claims on the cognitive component of faith may help carry the discussion in a more principled manner. So here goes:

- Religious belief cannot be contrary to reason, although some beliefs are above human reasoning capability.
- The cognitive component of faith has as its object the truth, and is directly connected to the volitional (non-cognitive) component of faith by what actions support these beliefs.
- Religious belief conforms with, and is supported by, empirical evidence.
- Using the Bible as a means of justification for religious belief is not circular.
- Belief in God is typically seen as foundational, or self-evident. It is also seen as a necessary truth (true in all possible worlds).

Do with these notions what you will. Just thought I'd try to provide some background for traditional Christian epistemology.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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First off, this is a really great topic. Haven't seen a good one for a while :P


Glad you like it. You made some interesting points there. Been thinking about this one for a while. plan to maybe make a youtube video on the subject but with just my views I was getting a bit hung up in a few spots.

The idea is that this is an epistemic faculty, like sight or hearing, that allows the perceiver to recognize God's existence. Those who don't believe lack this faculty and, thus, are considered to have some cognitive deficit.


Doesn't really have anything to do with the topic but this just made me think how someone would react to someone making this claim against me who I haven't had contact with in years.

Old friend: Mage is the most spiritual person you'll ever meet!
Me: I'm an atheist.
Old friend: ...<_<
Sonatavarius
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Why is faith (belief without proof) a good thing? Also How is it a reliable way of gauging reality?


if you're inspiration for the first part came from the doubting Thomas story then i'll answer with regard to the Thomas story.

First of all... I want to reiterate something. I have almost always been what one might call... a luke warm christian... or non chalant is one way of putting it. I've always "believed" but I've always had my own doubts as well... and according to the fact that I doubt as much as I do, and have come close to joining the ranks of those who I'm discussing with, I'm pretty sure that, granted there is a God that will judge me after my time here, qualifies me for the eternal suffering part of the afterlife... am I ok with that?... not really... not at all actually... but my mindset says I would simply bow my head and say "understood" and then look up and take a moment to stare into the presence of God and then choose to just fall backwards into whatever my fate had dealt me... but of course there's no way of knowing what will happen when someone is faced with an eternity of hell. (and that was under the assumption that i would stand before my judgement in a humanesque type form.)

Most of the reason I stepped into these arguments originally was because I saw lots of little kiddies who would spam the emotional stereotypical religious answers... only to have cold &quotrove its" thrust back at them... I would watch the little kids flounder and waver...and then I, the nonchalant, would step up just b/c I don't want their faiths to be determined because of what some other person said on a flash game site. They're young and ignorant...not that i'm not ignorant myself... Most of the time they haven't developed enough mentally to be able to think on the same level and to stand toe to toe with atheists that have sought answers for 30 years when they themselves are only 12-15. I know very well that I most likely won't be able to prove anything. My only goal is somehow stalemate and show them that there is in fact an argument they could have used... they just merely didn't know it. i don't believe a flash game site's forums should be the redefiner of beliefs that will last a lifetime. but that's just my opinion. i mean i see several "why shouldn't it be the redefiner if it happens to be right?" arguments coming my way... all i can say is "I don't know" and you haven't proven you're right with absolute certainty just yet...

The above was just because you requested my opinion on the subject. I for whatever reason feel as if I am expected to draw out an answer that will shake the foundations of those who read it.

back to the faith of thomas.... why should he of had faith without evidence? if you go based off of the bible... which seems to be the style for your first post... thomas had alot of evidence. here's where my bad christian part comes in... I'm assuming thomas was around for the "miracles" performed by Christ in life. If in life, Christ had proven to Thomas that he was in fact God's "son" then why was it so hard for Thomas to believe that the son of an "All-Powerful" father could in fact circumvent death itself?....that and he may or may not have been around for Lazarus (supposed) resurrection. i mean if the power of Christ's God could bring some old man back then couldn't it have brought his own son back?

what i'm getting at is that if he truly could perform miracles... and those weren't enough for Thomas to have faith then how many more times did Jesus have to prove himself before he would no longer doubt his capabilities?

I'm going to say that faith without works gives hope to people but then I can't answer your question of "what is hope then???" nor can I truly answer the other inevitability "why is hope needed???"... hope is the feeling that even against obviously insurmountable odds everything will might just be ok. Hope... from my definition... is the only thing that keeps some people going. whether its a justified hope in a real deity or a false hope in a fake one I don't know...but I've picked my side.

as for the gauging reality question.... I dunno. Tell me your take on the question in layman's terms and then I may have my answer. I've read the other posts but I think my right brain hemisphere deflated in the process.

for the most part... I don't know or have factual concrete evidence to support my arguments... but then as graham puts it... most of this is all &quotolemic" anyway

its no moe greche post but i've only done what i could. If I'm inspired to write anything else down later on then i'll revisit this. ...and here comes the tearing my post apart
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