ForumsWEPRWhat are lies?

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leo99rules
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leo99rules
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Nomad

If someone truly believes that the world is ruled by unicorns and fairies, is it a lie?

If there is evidence to back up a false information, is it a truth or a lie.

What is there to make it not true that pixies are alive?

You can't say there is no evidence because seeing can technically be a source of evidence.

But is not seeing a source of evidence?

If a plane goes past two people and only one person saw it and the other didn't because he was looking behind him. It is truth?

So is seeing a pixie go past and only one person sees it and the other doesn't. Is it truth?

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samy
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samy
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Nomad

A lie is stating that something is true even though you know or believe that it isn't, that's all.

As for your other questions I think they deal more with *puts on flame jacket* subjective and objective truth's; basically what I believe to be true and what is true.

leo99rules
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leo99rules
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Nomad

Key word is believe.

Most people think something is a truth or lie based on belief.

If you believe in a lie is it truth?

CommanderDude7
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CommanderDude7
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Nomad

If you believe in a lie is it truth?

I believe that mice created the earth. I also believe they created cats to throw us off the trail.
I see lies as more of matter of perspective in most things.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

If someone truly believes that the world is ruled by unicorns and fairies, is it a lie?


This pretty much answers this one. "No amount of belief makes something a fact." - James Randi

If there is evidence to back up a false information, is it a truth or a lie.


How would one have evidence of a falsehood? By it's very nature a falsehood cannot have supporting evidence.

What is there to make it not true that pixies are alive?


We know that pixies are fictional creatures. Should we find one, then they would no longer be fictional characters, but real creatures. In lieu of already knowing that they are the product of fiction, we would have to say that we do not know if they are real or not as there is no evidence for them, yet a standard method of searching for them has not been established.

You can't say there is no evidence because seeing can technically be a source of evidence.


In a manner sight could be evidence, however we must have other verification, or a consensus of observation along with repeatable and independently verifiable proof. Sight alone, especially when limited to one person, is not sufficient evidence.

But is not seeing a source of evidence?


In some circumstances it is however, as I stated above, personal sight alone is not sufficient to prove or disprove something. If I see a ghost, yet I cannot recreate the situation in which the observation occurred, or cannot establish that others see the same thing as I do I must admit that whatever I think it was I saw is not proven.

Truth must be demonstrable and repeatable in order to be considered to have sufficient evidence as to be a legitimate fact.
MoonFairy
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MoonFairy
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Shepherd

Well, when you keep you telling yourself something is true, even though before you knew it wasn't, and later on you actually believe, and can't remember the lie at all, is THAT truth?

I think that if you made the lie, and others believed it without knowing it was a lie, then it is THEIR Truth. so.... yeah.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

This pretty much answers this one. "No amount of belief makes something a fact." - James Randi


You keep beating me to the punch today. :P

How would one have evidence of a falsehood? By it's very nature a falsehood cannot have supporting evidence.


You can take evidence and lead to the wrong conclusions. For instance Children believe Santa exists, presents are left under the tree at Christmas, thus evidence that someone left them, concluding that Santa is real and left presents under the tree.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

It is still not truth Moon. It is merely an accepted view of reality, not the true reality. I may firmly believe that I'm from Mars, and I may convince others that I am as well. However this is not a truth, merely an accepted opinion.

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

You can take evidence and lead to the wrong conclusions. For instance Children believe Santa exists, presents are left under the tree at Christmas, thus evidence that someone left them, concluding that Santa is real and left presents under the tree.


This is true, however we do not assert as fact something which has so little supporting evidence. We have dozens of different things which we could say would be sufficient for proof of something, and unless there is a preponderance of evidence we still cannot claim it as truth.
samy
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samy
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I'm from Mars, and I may convince others that I am as well. However this is not a truth, merely an accepted opinion.


Even so can't this became, socially, as powerful as truth blurring the lines between the two about.

Anyway I think you, leo, are getting confused between lying and being false. Lying means saying something contrary to what you believe, in lying you can actually be telling the truth based upon the situation.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Even so can't this became, socially, as powerful as truth blurring the lines between the two about.


Of course. Take a look at religion. It is one of the most powerful influences in society, yet it is based on misconceptions, lies, assumptions, and speculation. I have yet to find evidence to prove any religion or any deity as true, yet billions of people go about their lives based on the tenets of their faith.
leo99rules
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leo99rules
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Nomad

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." - James Randi


What if we were all wrong?

What if our reasons were flawed.

Would nothing be a fact?

We know that pixies are fictional creatures.


No we don't.

Unless of course something can change from non fiction to fiction which wouldn't make sense.

As you said. Something believed to be non fiction does not make it non fiction.

Same goes for fiction?

(Refer to your post to moon)

In a manner sight could be evidence, however we must have other verification, or a consensus of observation along with repeatable and independently verifiable proof. Sight alone, especially when limited to one person, is not sufficient evidence.


It is still evidence. How much is sufficient is something we could argue about for years. You could watch something one billion times and it could never be sufficient.

Also go back to my last two questions in opening post.

I see lies as more of matter of perspective in most things.


I think that if you made the lie, and others believed it without knowing it was a lie, then it is THEIR Truth. so.... yeah.


What if you did not believe nor not believe.

Sorry to bring religion into this but like agnostics.

I believe that mice created the earth. I also believe they created cats to throw us off the trail.


This is as logical as any theory if you think about it.

Also is there an example of when not seeing can be a source of evidence?

Note: I tried to keep as third party but that failed.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

What if we were all wrong?

What if our reasons were flawed.


Then there would have to be a lot of explaining on how we have managed working applications for it all. Really your question seems a bit pointless here.

Would nothing be a fact?


Yes there would still be facts.

It is still evidence. How much is sufficient is something we could argue about for years. You could watch something one billion times and it could never be sufficient.


It wouldn't be objective evidence. It can't be verified as true, thus not sufficient evidence.

What if you did not believe nor not believe.


Belief requires a positive affirmation. So anything else would be not believing, including "I don't know", since this wouldn't be a positive affirmation.

Sorry to bring religion into this but like agnostics.


Agnosticism isn't a position of belief but of knowledge.

This is as logical as any theory if you think about it.


Since there is no evidence indicating this than no it's not any more logical than one that does.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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What if we were all wrong?

What if our reasons were flawed.

Would nothing be a fact?


If we have established something as a fact, yet are mistaken, then our methods of arriving at a consensus regarding the evidence supporting the fact are flawed and we must develop a new method. Fortunately we've gone through this process already throughout human history and we have arrived at the scientific method which is the best and most accurate way of determining truth. Short of waxing purely philosophical, and venturing into areas of solipsism, we likely aren't going to come to any better method than we use now.

No we don't.

Unless of course something can change from non fiction to fiction which wouldn't make sense.

As you said. Something believed to be non fiction does not make it non fiction.

Same goes for fiction?

(Refer to your post to moon)


Sure we do. The first mentions of our concept of pixies comes from fictional tales. Perhaps they are loosely based on some observation, however they have existed solely in fiction since their inception. Perhaps some day we will find one, but until that time we must consider them fictional, or at the very least as an unknown entity.

And no, we are not going to change something from non-fiction to fiction, since if it is real then it will always be real. Dinosaurs are not fiction simply because they don't exist anymore, they still are based in fact.

However fiction can become non-fiction. Let's use your pixies as an example. Up until today they have existed solely in fictitious tales. However if I run down to the lab and make one, then they are no longer fiction.

Just like what I said about religion. As of now each religion must be considered fiction as it is unproven. If such a time comes that some religion is proven to be a fact then it will become non-fiction, but until that day we cannot assert that any one is true.

It is still evidence. How much is sufficient is something we could argue about for years. You could watch something one billion times and it could never be sufficient.


It is in a sense, however it is a very fallible source of evidence. Simply because we see something does not mean it is real. People have hallucinations all the time, and also the brain will frequently make up images to explain to itself something which it does not understand. This is why visual evidence must be observable, demonstrable, and repeatable.

If I see a pixie but no one else does I cannot say that I saw one. However if there are 20 of us hanging out, everyone is in a unaltered and cognizant frame of mind and we all see a pixie then there might be something to it. If the pixie tells us to come back tomorrow, and we do and bring 50 friends and we all see the pixie, then it's a safe bet that it's real.

However all of this observation alone is still not sufficient proof to make it a fact. For that we need tangible evidence. A video recording, blood sample, photographs, things of that nature would likely be moving into the territory of proof.

What if you did not believe nor not believe.

Sorry to bring religion into this but like agnostics.


Not exactly sure what you mean by this.

This is as logical as any theory if you think about it.

Also is there an example of when not seeing can be a source of evidence?


Actually the mice idea you are referring to is not a logical hypothesis at all. We already know for a fact when and how mice and cats came to be, and it is not possible that a mouse created the earth or cats.

And yes, not seeing can be a source of evidence, yet it is just as difficult to use as proof as seeing. If one person says something is supposed to be in a place, yet no one sees it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist (like God) but it does mean that either the person making the claim doesn't understand the nature of what their pointing out, or that something else is at work which precludes observation.

While not seeing something doesn't mean that isn't there, it typically means that it's far more likely that it's not than is, just like observation alone cannot prove something, but it most certainly tips the scales in favor of that thing being real.
leo99rules
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leo99rules
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Nomad

And no, we are not going to change something from non-fiction to fiction, since if it is real then it will always be real. Dinosaurs are not fiction simply because they don't exist anymore, they still are based in fact.


I said believe. We believe pixies are fiction that does not make them fiction.

but until that time we must consider them fictional


If we were wrong right now and we didn't know would it be non fiction or fiction?

As to most of your answers.

We are never 100% sure. There is always a chance.

In everything we are never 100% sure. If the 0.0000000000000000000000000001% was right then your argument is completely invalid.

We don't know. Laws are not 100% right.

They could all be wrong.

So if you replace all those knows with believe...

And then realize there is always a possibility.

It opens your argument up completely.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

If you are going to use that argument then we may as well say that there is no such thing as truth, solipsism is correct, and **** the torpedoes.

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