Forums → WEPR → Mormonism
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I'm starting this topic to "continue" a conversation started in the Christians vs. Catholics thread. I will include some of the details from there, but the rest are up to anyone new to read up on. I will specifically post the contents of one post, more or less.
We did not baptize Adolf Hitler. That is a lie. After people baptized for Obama's mother, an official release was sent out saying that unless you specifically know the person who's name you are bringing in to do temple work for (not the names that they already have) or they are in your family, you cannot do temple work for them.
We are not barred from being around ex Mormons. We do not necessarily believe they are with Satan. We excommunicate people for their good. In our views, it gives them a second chance. They can rejoin the church later, and their sins will be gone, just as they were when they were first baptized. I know many ex Mormons, and I do not get in trouble for being with them.
South Park is in no way an authority on anything. The fact that you're trying to cite that is pathetic.
Yes, there was polygamy. But it was revoked in the 1890's (even if only for legal reasons). Joseph Smith did not try to burn down a newspaper place. He was taken to jail for no real reason. If he shot back, it was only because they were shooting at him.
The reason non members are not allowed in the temple is because of the sacred things that go on in there. If just anyone was allowed in, the spirit would be disrupted. I will expound on this if needs be.
I am personally ashamed of the acts of other Latter-Day Saints who have done temple work for people without permission from relatives of that person. It is wrong, and we know it.
Tithing... It was actually in Christ's day when it started. The only reason it affects our worthiness to enter the temple (not our standing in general). The Lord gave us everything we have, and all he asks is 10% of what we earn. I'd say that's a pretty small price for life, liberty, and happiness.
Also, we believe in Agency and Accountability. You can choose to do what you want, but you will have to accept the consequences.
I have a testimony of Jesus Christ. He is my savior and my redeemer. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that Thomas S. Monson is the living prophet today. I believe the Bible to be true as far as it is correctly translated. I know that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven for our sins and return to live with our Heavenly Father. I have seen the Atonement in action in my life. I know that God listens to all prayers to him. He answers them in his own way. I know that I can make it to the Celestial Kingdom if I but do my best to keep the commandments of God.
- 428 Replies
Now, given that we believe that the power of procreation is sacred and is only to be used between a man and a woman who are married to each other, you can see what is wrong.
So even married couples are only allowed to have sex if they want a child?
Add to that the fact that masturbation is also wrong
Masturbation is totally natural. Why should it be a sin?
Pornography is also quite simply irrelevant to life. What will viewing pornography do for me in the long run save for give me a few moments of pleasure? Think of how much time is wasted viewing pornography - time that could have been used to do something productive. Think of how much money is shelled out for pornographic magazines - money that could be used for other purposes.
Replace the word with music, sports, games, partying etc. You can use any word you want...
If you're still not clear on why I think pornography is wrong, let me tell you about the addictive nature of pornography. There is academic research that can verify this.
Alcohol is addictive but I'm not addicted to it although I drink every weekend.
In conclusion, there is nothing wrong with pornography as long as you're willing to waste your time and/or money to view it. It's okay as long as you have no life.
Back when I was together with my girlfriend we sometimes watched porn togheter to get in the mood. What's wrong with that? Does that mean that we had no life?
Honestly, if you have nothing better to do than look at porn in your spare time, you've got issues with your social life. When I have nothing better to do, I read a book. I work on sharpening my programming skills. I write, I listen to music, I do so many things in my spare time. Why would I choose to replace that with pornography?
Why are these things better than pornography? How can you say that listening to music is more productive than watching porn?
Let me answer your question with another. What is the purpose of pornography? It certainly isn't there to be admired. When you get down to it, it's there to sexually stimulate those who view it. Now, given that we believe that the power of procreation is sacred and is only to be used between a man and a woman who are married to each other, you can see what is wrong. Add to that the fact that masturbation is also wrong and you shouldn't have questions.
1. Who do you mean by 'we' and 'believe'? I asked for an objective answer that wasn't from a subjective/religious viewpoint.
2. Why should sex only be between a man and a woman?Homosexuality is natural as well.
3 Also, please tell me, what's so important about marriage?
4. Masturbation is a natural and healthy thing, advocated by many medical professionals and it has proven health benefits - why is it wrong?
Your answer has left me with nothing but more questions.
I am going to establish it right now that I do not feel evil or dirty for having looked at pornography. Yes, I did something wrong, but I stopped it from going further than that,
That still sounds like your guilting yourself over it and I don't see how it's wrong.
What is the purpose of pornography? It certainly isn't there to be admired. When you get down to it, it's there to sexually stimulate those who view it.
You answered your own question there.
Now, given that we believe that the power of procreation is sacred and is only to be used between a man and a woman who are married to each other, you can see what is wrong.
And a couple can't use sexually stimulating imagery? And sex isn't just for procreation.
Add to that the fact that masturbation is also wrong and you shouldn't have questions.
Being sexually repressed doesn't sound like a good idea to me at all. and yes your reasoning for it being wrong still leaves questions.
Masturbation done once a week until your 30 can reduce your chances of getting testicular cancer by a third. I would suspect the exercise and endorphin release that helps reduce stress would also have positive health benefits.
Think of how much money is shelled out for pornographic magazines - money that could be used for other purposes.
With the internet who needs to buy magazines anymore? Even though I don't get why people still pay the industry would be a benefit to the economy.
If you're still not clear on why I think pornography is wrong, let me tell you about the addictive nature of pornography. There is academic research that can verify this. I can't post sources right now, but I will by the end of the week. Why would I want to look at something addictive when I'm already more susceptible to addiction to /anything/ than most other people?
That usually is a result of having a predisposition to it. But if you want to avoid everything that can be addictive then what are you doing online at a gaming website?
Not everyone becomes a porn addict. A porn addict is someone for whom viewing porn interferes with their lives.
But a very high number does. I know several who became addicted after only a few times viewing it. Close family included. The point that he's trying to get past is simple, why waste your time when there's so many other things to do that are better and more fulfilling?
But a very high number does
Source pl0x? I highly doubt "a very high number does," you probably only hear of the instances of which it does. It's like judging the safety of air travel on the news, you're far more likely to die in a car crash, but the media overblows and focuses so much on any airplane incident that you'd think otherwise.
i am 15, when hormones are most rampaging and when if your going to get addicted to porn, now would be the time, i have viewed porn, it was nice, but i say i have its not regualr, its on occasion, i guess about 8-12 times since i first saw it about two years ago, and i have never heard of anyone my age viewing porn more than once a week for half an hour or so, its not time consuming, it doesnt cost money, i dont see the problem
possibly because it wasnt explained very clearly, everything you have said has been adressed and a counter argument has been provided
possibly because it wasnt explained very clearly, everything you have said has been adressed and a counter argument has been provided
Between Link and myself, it has been explained. As for the counter argument, that has also been addressed more than once, we're going in circles here.
Okay, I'm going to put an end to this nonsense once and for all. You guys simply do not know when to stop. I try to reason with you, and I get mocked. I try to be calm, and people get angry. I explain myself over and over, and yet you still ignore me, instead preferring to take phrases out of context. You're worse than Fox News. Why am I even comparing liberal minds to a conservative cesspool like Fox?
If you want my objective view of pornography, here it is: it's stupid, worthless, and offensive. There are a million other things I could do than look at pornography, all of which improve my skills at something. Pornography is simply a waste of my time.
I knew that many of you would ignore other parts of my post and only take the one part you had issues with and choose to attack it, even if you agreed with the rest of it. What are you trying to prove to me? That you can be just like the idiots at Fox who do exactly the same? Well, you're doing a good job at it. And here I was hoping that people who hated Fox would try their hardest not to emulate them.
Now, because you say I never address people's arguments, you're forcing my hand here. Maybe you should realize that a majority of the arguments I don't address have already been addressed and have not changed a whit since the last time they were posted. Maybe you should consider that many of the posts here look like trolling attempts.
@E1337 you have been warned time and again not to be a troll here. I think it's time that you leave this thread. I'll let a mod decide that, though.
@sprooschicken you're doing the same things that E1337 was doing early on in the thread. Don't push your luck, or you'll be invited to leave too.
@Kasic I'll provide sources. Just give me time without people trolling me on a daily basis.
@MageGrayWolf i think it's sad that your arguments are the most logical on page 34, especially given that it contains some trolling. I will address your arguments when I have calmed down enough to be reasonable.
@grimml I'll get to your questions when I calm down. I'm in no state to answer anything right now.
@Avorne all valid questions, and a valid concern. In fact, I think your way of addressing my arguments may be the clearest I've seen in a while. Please stand by for answers. I'll try to be objective with you.
Because this thread has started to grow out of control again, I have asked a moderator - Asherlee - to come in.
Again, I don't like to be the bad guy, but I feel I'm being forced into this position. I'd like to have intelligent conversation, but so far I've been forced to merely defend everything I say, and then to defend my defenses, and then to defend those defenses to my defenses. We're getting nowhere in this thread. If you do not have something new to bring to the table, then please do not post on this thread. I am not discouraging questions, but I am discouraging inane questions that keep getting repeated. If you have a problem with how I answer the question, please point it out in a civil manner and state what you want answered. A good example is Avorne's most recent post.
I knew that many of you would ignore other parts of my post and only take the one part you had issues with and choose to attack it, even if you agreed with the rest of it
Well that's generally how an argument works. It's like saying, "I love Pizza with Pineapple, onion, and ham" and then someone arguing that the Pineapple makes it bad, and you get all mad that they don't "Fully" agree with you.
Maybe you should realize that a majority of the arguments I don't address have already been addressed
If they keep re-addressing them, they obviously feel like the issue wasn't really addressed.
Maybe you should consider that many of the posts here look like trolling attempts.
I briefly glanced over the last 3 pages, I see no trolling, aside from possibly Eaglepaw. Trolling
is In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
All people are doing here is posting things against your viewpoint - hardly unexpected in a debate forum. Just because you don't agree with it or find their view of something offensive doesn't make it trolling. Trolling would be me saying..."YOU'RE A MORMON YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING" as it does not relate to the discussion in any ways, lends nothing to it, and just provokes you with an off topic statement that was made to be deliberately insulting and nothing else. What people are saying on this thread isn't trolling.
If they keep re-addressing them, they obviously feel like the issue wasn't really addressed.
What you're missing is that it's the same exact thing over and over and over and over ... and over again. Your argument is akin to trying to justify the fool who does the same thing over and over, expecting different results, and then wondering WHY the same results keep happening, but never learning.
Face it: nobody is going to be happy with my answer until I surrender to them and say "you're absolutely positively 100% correct, and I am a fool for even trying to say something. Oh how great is your wisdom." If they truly wanted a better answer, they would tell me what I needed to improve or expand on. Instead, they just try to make a counterpoint that is entirely out of context with the rest of my argument. Which brings me to the next point.
Well that's generally how an argument works. It's like saying, "I love Pizza with Pineapple, onion, and ham" and then someone arguing that the Pineapple makes it bad, and you get all mad that they don't "Fully" agree with you.
What they're doing isn't arguing. It's attacking things they are taking out of context a good portion of the time. It's mocking me for holding what they think are ridiculous beliefs. I have been careful not to mock in this thread, but you know what? I'm going to start playing f***in' hardball. Obviously nothing else works.
[quote]Trolling is In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
All people are doing here is posting things against your viewpoint - hardly unexpected in a debate forum. Just because you don't agree with it or find their view of something offensive doesn't make it trolling. Trolling would be me saying..."YOU'RE A MORMON YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING" as it does not relate to the discussion in any ways, lends nothing to it, and just provokes you with an off topic statement that was made to be deliberately insulting and nothing else. What people are saying on this thread isn't trolling.
[/quote]
You have no idea what trolling has come to mean, do you? It now means (a) deliberately lying to people, trying to get them to believe you, or trying to get an emotional reaction; (b) saying things that, no matter how on-topic they are, are crafted to elicit an emotional response from those reading them; (c) Mocking people for saying things, again trying to get an emotional response out of them and/or to get others to agree with the troll. Trust me. I troll for a living, man. Do you think I don't know what a troll is? Do you know how hard it was for me to keep my last post even just that ticked off sounding?
Here's an example of trolling and an average reaction. In fact, my first reaction:
"The church doesn't allow it because it's pleasurable, and everything pleasurable is a sin." (pretty close to an actual post by E1337).
1. Pleasurable by whose standards? Yours? Who died and made you king?
2. Has it occurred to you that NOT EVERYONE LIKES TO F***ING MASTURBATE?
3. Shut up or I'll shut your mouth for you.
4. gtfo
I briefly glanced over the last 3 pages, I see no trolling, aside from possibly Eaglepaw.
See my previous statement. Also, the last three pages are not the pages I'm talking about. I'm the one who started this thread. Asherlee can even tell you, a lot of the early things were trolling, or looked to be so.
What you're missing is that it's the same exact thing over and over and over and over ... and over again
Because you provide the same answer to their argument, thus they re-use the argument because they feel like you didn't defeat it. Then you re-answer it the same way, and it continues.
It's mocking me for holding what they think are ridiculous beliefs.
So show them they aren't ridculous. Either do that or just ignore them, I don't much care, but you accusing everyone of trolling because they disagree with you is just plain annoying. True there have been some troll posts, but looking back through the thread, you accuse anyone of trolling whenever they come near getting to "why" you believe something happens, in which case you say you won't repeat yourself again (First answer and repeat apparently non-existent) and say that they are just making fun of you.
(a) deliberately lying to people, trying to get them to believe you, or trying to get an emotional reaction
Sounds like sarcasm to me.
(b) saying things that, no matter how on-topic they are, are crafted to elicit an emotional response from those reading them;
Sounds like a general debate to me. You pick at your opponents weak spots, and then ridicule him for claiming "You're just making fun of me" which of course just invites more of it.
(c) Mocking people for saying things,
Things deserved to be mocked if they make no sense or are ridiculous.
"The church doesn't allow it because it's pleasurable, and everything pleasurable is a sin."
I do not see how that is a troll. It's a statement, you do not have to respond to it, or you can ask him to prove it. Just going "You're trolling, i'm ignoring you now" just makes it look like you don't have an answer for it.
I literally have no idea what you were talking about when you mentioned my name, I stated a valid opinion that happened to be against your own, as I see it you have no reason, or in fact any right to ask me to leave a debate forum simply for, well debating!?
just because you started the thread doesn't give you any special rights, as long as no one is breaking the site rules you have no power to tell them what to do, by all means bring in a mod I doubt however they will see it your way
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