Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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And here we have a blood that's in state like being ready for transfusion (all reactions seem to be in normal bounds), sealed for 1200 years.
It doesn't say it is in this state. Even a visual inspection can tell you that.
"The blood consists of five coagulated globules and has an earthly color resembling the yellow of ochre."
Blood that color is oxidized and can't carry oxygen.
Why, the Pope has advisors, all the bishops in case of something crucial, that's why the Ecumenical Councils are collected. Smaller matters can be solved within the Papal Curia, in prayers, investigations, consulting with all the sides, etc.
Two people can't mentor each other. There must be at least one person who is just a mentor and if he doesn't need one why should we.
Wait, but the pope is god's servant, why does he need advisers for? Did god not grace him with the wisdom needed?As any human, the Pope is a poor sinner and can make mistakes. The only time the Pope cannot mistake due to God's grace is when he declares ex catedra some doctrine of faith and morals. You're speaking about this, I expect. And, the Pope does have assistance of Holy Spirit, but not for the entire time did God grant infallibility. So your argument turned into juggling bull**** words again.
There must be at least one person who is just a mentorI have never said "mentor", note that. I have only said "advisor", and say a married couple consulting within themselves about some matters are advising each other. So there can be loops in the graph of advisors, and there are.
It doesn't say it is in this state. Even a visual inspection can tell you that.Yes indeed, I seem to have misread the meanings of AB tests made and serum tests. Anyway, any living cell should decay within 1200 years, while there are tissue and blood. And also what do you think about weight check, when one globule of blood weighted as much as two, and two as much as three, and three as much as all five?
As any human, the Pope is a poor sinner and can make mistakes. The only time the Pope cannot mistake due to God's grace is when he declares ex catedra some doctrine of faith and morals. You're speaking about this, I expect. And, the Pope does have assistance of Holy Spirit, but not for the entire time did God grant infallibility. So your argument turned into juggling bull**** words again.
Please give an example of the time when the pope is guided by the holy spirit. I have recieved absolutely no evidence of this ever happening.
And also what do you think about weight check, when one globule of blood weighted as much as two, and two as much as three, and three as much as all five?
Given it was the first test conducted in the 16th century I'm highly skeptical of the results. Also given the first test to it was almost 1000 years later makes me think the story of the monk in 700s is made up.
its fun watching athiests talk about christianity.. especially since maybe 5 people in the world still go onto these blogs... 4 of them being athiests and 1 of them being a christian.
The pope makes mistakes except when he is not. As I said before, bull****. Either he makes mistakes, including religious ones, or he is god's servant and does not need aides.
I'm not opposed to your viewpoint, but I can clarify. He's saying that the Pope himself is a man, and like all man can make mistakes. But the Catholic teaching is that the Holy Spirit guides the pope in proclaiming doctrine. So he can think wrongly, but he can't declare things that are wrong as doctrine. Or so the belief goes.
Personally, I think that the Old Testament is indefensible. And one could say it is written by men, and that actually works as an argument. But then, the teachings of Jesus also don't seem ethically right, by most people's moral compasses. All sin is equal? Those who don't blindly follow wither and die?
Wouldn't it make more sense that those who do good things and help others go to heaven, those who try but fail get something less special, and only sadistic freaks go to hell? Wouldn't THAT be just?
There is a God, it's from Him that all our consciences stem. It's why we have free will; we can act independently of the governing laws of the universe, we are apart. If we weren't, if we were simply electrons flowing in neuroelectric processes, well then there's no reason at all why we would be conscious! We'd be like a rock rolling down a hill, all its decisions made by the laws of physics, with no awareness at all.
Our consciousnesses make us special. It used to seem to me like being on the Christian side of belief was the safe side, for obvious reasons. Now it is clear that no one is certain in their ethical and religious beliefs, and the best we can do is try to be good people and hope that He is benevolent.
Wow, first time getting all my beliefs out. I need a breather :P
*PS: Read "consciences" as "consciousnesses". Also, vesper, you're one of the sharpest people I've ever met. None of your arguments seem bogus to me
Our consciousnesses make us special. It used to seem to me like being on the Christian side of belief was the safe side, for obvious reasons. Now it is clear that no one is certain in their ethical and religious beliefs, and the best we can do is try to be good people and hope that He is benevolent.
Why is christianity safe? Atheism just means you want logic which god ill accept and he will be benevolent. OR else he does not deserve to be called god.
Wouldn't it make more sense that those who do good things and help others go to heaven, those who try but fail get something less special, and only sadistic freaks go to hell? Wouldn't THAT be just?
I don't see how an eternal punishment can be just, even for sadistic freaks. In fact instead of punishing them God would be in a unique position to be able to help them. So does it not make more sense that those who "deserve hell" instead receive help in the afterlife, if such forces are not willing to do so in this one?
There is a God, it's from Him that all our consciences stem.
Actually it stems from an evolutionary benefit as a social animal.
we can act independently of the governing laws of the universe, we are apart.
Can you give an example, because I can't think of any time that we've done this.
Our consciousnesses make us special.
Not really other animals display a conscience as well.
Wow, first time getting all my beliefs out. I need a breather :P
Deep breaths, in... out...
Actually it stems from an evolutionary benefit as a social animal.There are more social animals than humans, say hyenas. Do they have free will?
Can you give an example, because I can't think of any time that we've done this.Say, we can make a self-sacrifice, despite the self-preservation instinct any animal has.
Also given the first test to it was almost 1000 years later makes me think the story of the monk in 700s is made up.These stories are written in chronicles, and if they are revised at least once but retained the core, they are true. So you have to get arguments more valid than a personal opinion to support this claim.
All sin is equal? Those who don't blindly follow wither and die?Why, no. By the time Jesus spoke the word "sin" He used meant only what is now named "mortal sin", for which the punishment is Hell or "outer darkness, there men will weep and gnash their teeth" , if the person did not repent his wrongdoings. A mortal sin consists of intent, knowing that the deed is a sin (which means this action goes contrary to God's Ten Commandments) and the sinful action that's free enough to be a personal choice. Most of the times the intent is lacking or the choice is not so free, if so, the sin stops being mortal and won't lead to eternal punishment, but it still requires repentance to avoid temporary punishment (the Purgatory).
Wouldn't it make more sense that those who do good things and help others go to heaven, those who try but fail get something less special, and only sadistic freaks go to hell? Wouldn't THAT be just?It would make sense for humans, God has some other merits to judge a particular person at the point of his death. I have heard of a story, that there was a monk who failed to bring himself to repent and confess a mortal sin, but did everything else, and looked holy to his neighbors. He passed out somewhat soon after entering monastery (half a year maybe, can't recall the exact time), and his neighbors started thinking the kid is in Heaven and started asking him for intercession, as believers normally ask saints. But one of them was granted a vision of their "saint" wrapped with fiery rope and saying "Don't ask me for intercession, because I am in Hell. I have not confessed a mortal sin, and I am now suffering for this." So, that kid probably helped others and much more, but kept to some evil in his heart, not allowing God to access it through confession, and left with it at the time of his judgement. The opposite can happen in fact, but each case is resolved separately, and most of the time we never know how it was resolved.
There is a God, it's from Him that all our consciences stem.Yep, and since you believe that there is a God, you might also believe that you, and every other human, has a soul. I'd like to talk with you personally somewhere, but I don't think I will be able to reach Canada, or you reach me here. I have found out that writing over Internet does not transfer emotions of the one who writes, even if he uses some assuring words, enough for the addressee to acknowledge them correctly.
Atheism just means you want logic which god ill acceptThis position makes you the ultimate judge, and is wrong because of God existing.
There are more social animals than humans, say hyenas. Do they have free will?
Don't see why they wouldn't.
Say, we can make a self-sacrifice, despite the self-preservation instinct any animal has.
Self sacrifice for the benefit (or at least perceived benefit) of the group does not violate this. For instance an ant instinct is to sacrifice itself for the benefit of the colony. The ant is of course more of an extreme case compared to a human but does illustrate how self sacrifice can override self preservation.
These stories are written in chronicles, and if they are revised at least once but retained the core, they are true. So you have to get arguments more valid than a personal opinion to support this claim.
It wasn't a claim, simply an observation. If records exist showing it to be older then fine.
but it still requires repentance to avoid temporary punishment (the Purgatory).
I thought the Catholic Church had abandoned it's concept of purgatory.
It would make sense for humans, God has some other merits to judge a particular person at the point of his death.
It would make sense for any being that is suppose to have God's qualities. But yet for some contrived reason it is not and such reason of God's remains hidden.
But one of them was granted a vision of their "saint" wrapped with fiery rope and saying "Don't ask me for intercession, because I am in Hell.
Your subjective evidence get's weary.
[quote]theism just means you want logic which god ill accept
This position makes you the ultimate judge, and is wrong because of God existing. [/quote]
Atheism doesn't always mean you want logic There can be other reasons for someone to arrive at atheism.
The argument that such a statement is wrong because God exists is nothing more the assertion. If God existing was the logical position then the person arriving at atheism because of a logical stance would not be doing so, but instead would be arriving at the conclusion that God does logically exist.
It would make sense for any being that is suppose to have God's qualities.For some reason you are deciding what qualities God should have. There is one God, and it's us who are to adapt our qualities to comply with His requirements, not the opposite. And, this is the very same point I have addressed towards qwerty1011, you cannot be the ultimate judge, given God. In order for you to proclaim yourself such a judge, you are to determine there are no authorities above you.
Your subjective evidence get's weary.Are you not tired replying to every nitpick there is, even if it's aimed to be read by another person?
I thought the Catholic Church had abandoned it's concept of purgatory.This concept has reached the status of Church dogma, so it cannot be abandoned.
For instance an ant instinct is to sacrifice itself for the benefit of the colony. The ant is of course more of an extreme case compared to a human but does illustrate how self sacrifice can override self preservationYou can't directly compare ant and human, since ants are driven by community instincts, like say bees, and humans are driven by consciousness instead. Ants don't have a will to choose between life and death, we have the will and sometimes the choice, and instincts are against the choice of death. With ants, it's the instincts that force the ant to die for the benefit of the colony. Also, self-sacrifice is an action that requires will to complete, so ants are incapable of this, unless you prove they have free will. :-)
Don't see why they wouldn't.This means you have no proof. So they don't, and it's up to you to prove they do.
Limbo is not Purgatory, Limbo is a designation for first circle of Hell, where, according to Dante, souls do not suffer from tortures, but only from absence of God and despair. The doctrine cited is that Limbo is a place somewhere not in Heaven, Purgatory or Hell, where souls remain because they didn't deserve Heaven but didn't deserve Hell as well. While MGW asked if the Purgatory is abandoned.
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