I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done. I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
Faith... Faith... Now, if I believe in an all powerful God, I don't need facts, I need faith. It is a personal veiw that you do not have to believe if you don't want to.
It has nothing to do with faith, nothing to do with belief. It has everything to do with reality. If I tell you the world is round, it is a fact. Your belief has nothing to do with it. If I tell you the origin and evolution of life, it is a fact, not an opinion. If I tell you your god can not possibly exist, that is a fact, not an opinion.
I was just saying that I am not trying to argue. I just wanted to show my opinion.
As I said, we are arguing facts, not opinions.
So Disect what I say, catch my every slip of the toungue.
Everyone says I do that, but I really don't see it...
But it will not change what I believe
Then you are close minded, correct?
You bring all of this up, but if I were to sit here and argue about weather or not God exists, I would not be doing the very thing he wanted me to.
And what does he want you to do? Ignore the facts? Turn a blind eye to the examples? Is your god the god of ignorance? What does he want you to do, exactly?
Faith... Faith... Now, if I believe in an all powerful God, I don't need facts, I need faith. It is a personal veiw that you do not have to believe if you don't want to.
I don't want you to change your mind on the matter: to each his own. I simply want to have a discussion on the topic of religion.
I was just saying that I am not trying to argue. I just wanted to show my opinion.
Why did you want to show your opinion without having a discussion about it?
So Disect what I say, catch my every slip of the toungue. But it will not change what I believe.
It shouldn't necessarily change what you believe, but it is important to listen to other sides. I have especially found the forums a great place to learn all kinds of different arguments for and against religion (this applies to many topics such as politics, abortion, etc., but I tend to be specifically in the religious forums).
Solid reason, facts, examples. You bring all of this up, but if I were to sit here and argue about weather or not God exists, I would not be doing the very thing he wanted me to.
Doesn't god want us to believe in him? If you can present a valid enough argument, you would be doing his will, wouldn't you? I mean, you don't have to flame and hate or anything, I understand if god doesn't want that, but having a discussion on the topic... Who knows? Maybe you'll enlighten us.
You Okay, example: Say you've never seen a lion, only on TV. How do you know it exists? You believe.
Besides the visual evidence that was just provided to me which if I doubted the validity of I could take and further examine for special effects being used? I could further investigate to find other forms of supporting evidence of their existence such as further photographic/video evidence not connected to the tv show or skeletal remains. If I wanted to I could even make a trip to where lions are and confirm for myself if they exist or not. With the claim of God we have non of this, not even a questionable tv show. The two stances of belief are not equal. There is a huge difference between faith based belief and evidence based belief. It's the difference between just accepting that email you got saying a millionaire in Zimbabwe wants your help with their money and someone providing actual documentation that the millionaire exists and the request is legitimate.
Alright, I will say one more thing. Gods will for those that follow him is that we lead as many people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. I would also like to thank all of you who understood my point even if you didn't agree...
I rest my case. I forgot why I stay off this forum topic . You can't help but get into an argument...
Why is that a bad thing? I met many of my AG friends by arguing with them about the topic of religion. They weren't hostile arguments (well, some were :P), they were discussions about why we believed or didn't believe in god or gods and the validity or invalidity of religious claims. It's not a bad thing to be challenged on your beliefs. I understand if you don't want to have a discussion, but in a thread called "Theism and Atheism" you don't read the thread just to hear people's opinions and not respond to or be affected by them. I come here all the time to have my beliefs challenged, sometimes I even argue against what I believe (like I'm doing now) to make sure I understand exactly what my opponents are saying and also because if there are parts of my beliefs I can't explain, asking other believers how they resolve the issue is just as important as presenting your beliefs (in a non hostile way, hopefully ) for the purpose of defending them. And I'm sorry, but you seem to be responding by saying, "I don't need evidence, I have faith". I have faith too, but I still make discussions on the basis of evidence because that's what you do. I don't simply decide that the issue isn't worth exploring because my religion requires a leap of faith. In fact, it is for this reason that I like to explore the topic and challenge myself to close the gap of what I don't understand, hopefully to make the leap a little less terrifying.
Code of the Atheist:
Faith is a lie. There is only knowledge. Through knowledge, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken.
I hope somebody reading this knows where I pulled that from. :P
Gods will for those that follow him is that we lead as many people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Refusing to engage in discussions with atheists is not the way to convince them to follow what you believe. I'm not trying to be hostile, so I apologize if I came across that way, but respecting one's right to hold an opinion is not dependent on avoiding any possible discussion on the differences between your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and theirs.
God will... show himself? do party tricks? hide behind the couch and scratch himself?
I vote for the second one. Let's get out some glasses of water, then good old JC can do his famous party trick
If I was able to prove the existence of a divine entity in a way atheists find acceptable, atheism would cease to exist.
Wouldn't that require some extremely solid proof; I'm sure many still wouldn't believe, and find a way to further dissprove the "evidence". Even if it is viable, and in that hypotheticcal situation, there is god/gods.
Wouldn't that require some extremely solid proof; I'm sure many still wouldn't believe, and find a way to further dissprove the "evidence". Even if it is viable, and in that hypotheticcal situation, there is god/gods.
I rest my case. I forgot why I stay off this forum topic . You can't help but get into an argument...
Get into an argument? On a debate thread? HOW DARE WE!
Alright, I will say one more thing. Gods will for those that follow him is that we lead as many people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
How do you know that? Why would that be necessary?
I would also like to thank all of you who understood my point even if you didn't agree...
While you look at my point and say "Oh yes. Facts and evidence. That is cool, but I am sticking with blind faith"?
I just feel there will never be any evidence that atheists will accept as viable proof of the deities the theists believe in.
I mean, what do you want?
If I was able to prove the existence of a divine entity in a way atheists find acceptable, atheism would cease to exist.
It would be easy. Show me. Show me your god. In the Bible, your god was something that would appear in every battle, rain dramatic fire from the sky, and talk to his people in a booming voice. He would show himself to anyone and everyone, in a form that would be impossible to mistake for anything but a deity. If he would do something like that in modern times, it would be proof of him, wouldn't it?
I don't know why you think it is difficult to prove that something, especially something that is supposed to be large as a deity. If you don't believe in lions, I show you lions. If you don't believe in noodles, I can show you noodles. I don't believe in god, so why don't you show me a god?
It would be easy. Show me. Show me your god. In the Bible, your god was something that would appear in every battle, rain dramatic fire from the sky, and talk to his people in a booming voice. He would show himself to anyone and everyone, in a form that would be impossible to mistake for anything but a deity. If he would do something like that in modern times, it would be proof of him, wouldn't it?
I don't know why you think it is difficult to prove that something, especially something that is supposed to be large as a deity. If you don't believe in lions, I show you lions. If you don't believe in noodles, I can show you noodles. I don't believe in god, so why don't you show me a god?
Let's get real bro.
....There's no such thing as 'nood-les'. Nor will there ever be. I mean, come on. SHOW ME YOUR NOOD-LES.
And this is what I'm trying to get at. If we were all meeting in a bar, and I put my arm around the guy with the beard next to me and said, "Jesus...the guys. The guys....Jesus" and we all high-fived and he turned our water to the beverage of your choosing, we wouldn't have atheism, or buddhism, or any other -ism or religion other than christianity.
Why he doesn't pop down for a visit and boom for everybody, I don't know. Why he makes his very possible existence illogical and ill-reasoned, I don't know.
....There's no such thing as 'nood-les'. Nor will there ever be. I mean, come on. SHOW ME YOUR NOOD-LES.
Well here it is. It is a little bit disturbing to just post, so be warned...
And this is what I'm trying to get at. If we were all meeting in a bar, and I put my arm around the guy with the beard next to me and said, "Jesus...the guys. The guys....Jesus" and we all high-fived and he turned our water to the beverage of your choosing, we wouldn't have atheism, or buddhism, or any other -ism or religion other than christianity.
And then we would all be saved, correct? Isn't that what your god wants?
Why he doesn't pop down for a visit and boom for everybody, I don't know. Why he makes his very possible existence illogical and ill-reasoned, I don't know.
.....Wait, did you just admit that his very existence is illogical and ill-reasoned?
It is a little bit disturbing to just post, so be warned...
I was disturbed. And this goes with.....those mystical, round spheres of meat?
.....Wait, did you just admit that his very existence is illogical and ill-reasoned?
More like that it appears to us that way....I guess. 0.o
I mean, if he was just strollin' around preforming miracles, we wouldn't need to be religious or whatnot, because he'd be right there, chest-pumping and knee-slapping his way through the world.
And then we would all be saved, correct? Isn't that what your god wants?
My interpretation of the whole 'saving' thing is that he wants us to all be 'saved', or come back, but not without effort. Whats the point of doing good, or being kind and blah if you're 'saved' anyway? The sky would rain contraceptives and magnums.
...I'm trying my best to have a stand point without preaching or 'condemning everybody to hell', or whatnot.
Well, let's say that some way a deity proves it's existence to humanity. Would everyone suddenly become fervent acolytes? Certainly not. Would everyone suddenly accept said deity's guidelines and go to heaven? Certainly not. Would everyone suddenly behave all good all the time? Certainly not.
So I don't see what would be wrong with that. Saying god cannot show up because then everyone will be christian is simply not true, if you think about it.
