I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done. I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
Which is why this whole debate is going on, because that won't happen. Just ask all those theists, who will proclaim your 'heathen' ways and condemn you to hell.
That's why they have faith, because He doesn't do that for any of them either.
That would be a problem for the claim as there are points that should be expected to see happen. Particularly #4 given what's stated on prayer we should see such events outlined take place.
Here are a couple of a number of examples of this.
Mark 11:24 (KJV) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Matthew 18:19 (KJV) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
#4 really isn't asking for any much beyond what is being stated should happen.
#1 is something God did on a regular basis up til we started documenting events beyond hearsay.
#2 for a book that is self surrounded with prophecy this again shouldn't be a huge thing to ask for.
#3 considering this God is suppose to be omniscient this again doesn't seem like a huge thing to ask for.
Really when you get down to it since we are dealing with an omnipotent being no form of evidence should be to much to ask for as this god being all powerful could do anything effortlessly.
In fact some of what we do get is the direct opposite of these points of evidence. Such as with #5 or #6.
Why is that a bad thing? I met many of my AG friends by arguing with them about the topic of religion. They weren't hostile arguments (well, some were :P), they were discussions about why we believed or didn't believe in god or gods and the validity or invalidity of religious claims. It's not a bad thing to be challenged on your beliefs. I understand if you don't want to have a discussion, but in a thread called "Theism and Atheism" you don't read the thread just to hear people's opinions and not respond to or be affected by them. I come here all the time to have my beliefs challenged, sometimes I even argue against what I believe (like I'm doing now) to make sure I understand exactly what my opponents are saying and also because if there are parts of my beliefs I can't explain, asking other believers how they resolve the issue is just as important as presenting your beliefs (in a non hostile way, hopefully ) for the purpose of defending them. And I'm sorry, but you seem to be responding by saying, "I don't need evidence, I have faith". I have faith too, but I still make discussions on the basis of evidence because that's what you do. I don't simply decide that the issue isn't worth exploring because my religion requires a leap of faith. In fact, it is for this reason that I like to explore the topic and challenge myself to close the gap of what I don't understand, hopefully to make the leap a little less terrifying.
Point is, I just forgot this was a debate forum. It was my bad.
And anyway, I don't htink I'm really going to affect the opposing party in any way. I'll just end up in an argument then I'll ambarass myself by withdrawing from the conversation. so, goodday...
Point is, I just forgot this was a debate forum. It was my bad.
Oh, ok, I gotcha. No worries.
And anyway, I don't htink I'm really going to affect the opposing party in any way. I'll just end up in an argument then I'll ambarass myself by withdrawing from the conversation. so, goodday...
If I may say one final thing, it's ok to lose a debate or even embarass yourself a little. Some of my earliest discussions involved me being very close-minded while not even understanding what the other side was saying (I'm sure Mage and others can attest to that). Goodday
I guess what I'm getting as is what makes having faith such a valuable thing to have that that it would be made a requirement of a god?
I hate to be vague-ish especially since I haven't hung around the forums a while, but it's possible that God isn't necessarily just doing random **** for no reason, but that maybe he can't allow us to know that he's there for some big reason, even though he really wants us to know. So showing himself off before documentation began would make it ok since nobody would be able to prove this outside of word of mouth, but a small number of people would know. But now that there's a lot more verication going around, leaving behind any evidence of his supernatural existence would come dangerously close to making his existence common knowledge. It's just a theory I'm throwing out there, so feel free to pick it apart. But maybe Satan can step his game up just as easily and will if God takes faith out of the equation, and maybe God would rather have good people do what they do regardless of whether they know he exists than risk Satan unleashing his demons or something. Maybe it's more like an Ellimist vs Crayak kind of thing (Animorphs reference might fly over some people's heads) where it's just one of the rules not to reveal himself anymore.
So to answer your question, I'd say it's possible that it isn't so much a revered characteristic by God as it is the only way we can know him without violating some rule we can't see. And yes, maybe it's not worth worrying about if not having faith makes it impossible to see and know God. But maybe it's also worth having faith to have a chance to know something/someone that can't communicate any other way.
and maybe God would rather have good people do what they do regardless of whether they know he exists than risk Satan unleashing his demons or something.
Except, according to the bible, the world is currently ruled by Satan (1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9,12). If he did not control it, he couldn't have offered the kingdoms to Jesus in exchange for worship (Matthew 4:8,9). He and his demons can do whatever they want until Jesus comes back and takes over (Revelation 20 1:6).
I hate to be vague-ish especially since I haven't hung around the forums a while, but it's possible that God isn't necessarily just doing random **** for no reason, but that maybe he can't allow us to know that he's there for some big reason, even though he really wants us to know.
And why would that be? According to the Christians he is omnipotent and omniscient, he would literately have nothing that could stand against him. If there was a reason, wouldn't he just be able to get rid of it with a swipe of his hand? The whole problem with evil thing?
. So showing himself off before documentation began would make it ok since nobody would be able to prove this outside of word of mouth, but a small number of people would know. But now that there's a lot more verication going around, leaving behind any evidence of his supernatural existence would come dangerously close to making his existence common knowledge.
Why? That doesn't make any since. He wants us to know, but he doesn't?
It's just a theory I'm throwing out there, so feel free to pick it apart. But maybe Satan can step his game up just as easily and will if God takes faith out of the equation, and maybe God would rather have good people do what they do regardless of whether they know he exists than risk Satan unleashing his demons or something. Maybe it's more like an Ellimist vs Crayak kind of thing (Animorphs reference might fly over some people's heads) where it's just one of the rules not to reveal himself anymore.
He is omnipotent and omniscient under Christian rules. It would literally take seconds to get rid of any demon invasion under those rules, and there is no reason why faith would be a power giver unless your in some fantasy story.
And why would that be? According to the Christians he is omnipotent and omniscient, he would literately have nothing that could stand against him. If there was a reason, wouldn't he just be able to get rid of it with a swipe of his hand? The whole problem with evil thing?
I don't happen to believe that he is omnipotent and omniscient. It was a conclusion I came to when reading one of the OT stories where God was surprised and annoyed by certain situations that didn't work out the way he planned (take your pick), so I concluded that this god couldn't know everything if things that he didn't want to happen were happening based on his actions. I know it's probably not a position that you commonly run into when discussing with Christians, so I see why that wouldn't hold up for an omni-[insert any word here] god. Although even under such a definition for a god of the omni's, it would have a very specific set of behaviors in order to remain perfect in every way, so what it is capable of doing might not necessarily be something it could do without falling outside of its (I hate to use this word) programmed behaviors. But again, I don't follow that belief so that might be irrelevant to our discussion.
Why? That doesn't make any since. He wants us to know, but he doesn't?
He wants us to know, but he doesn't want the unwanted cause that would arise from letting us all know. Sorry if I didn't explain that very well. In the past, letting one person know didn't prove it to everyone because anyone else would have to accept it on faith. But doing a miracle in modern times would be far more likely to catch attention and leave behind evidence, maybe even get caught on camera. So that's more or less what I was poking at.
He is omnipotent and omniscient under Christian rules. It would literally take seconds to get rid of any demon invasion under those rules, and there is no reason why faith would be a power giver unless your in some fantasy story.
Like I say above, I don't follow the belief that God is omnipotent and omniscient. I think there are a number of different problems you run into if you make that assumption, which is why I don't follow it. I would have to agree with you that under the characteristics of an omnipotent and omniscient god, it wouldn't make sense to use faith, of all things, as the only means of knowing the god.
Except, according to the bible, the world is currently ruled by Satan (1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9,12). If he did not control it, he couldn't have offered the kingdoms to Jesus in exchange for worship (Matthew 4:8,9). He and his demons can do whatever they want until Jesus comes back and takes over (Revelation 20 1:6).
That's a good point, but even so, isn't it possible that Satan becomes more in control if faith is taken out of the equation? Maybe us not knowing for sure if God exists is appetizing enough that he doesn't want to unleash everything that he could on this world, and God would rather avoid Satan using all his evil, even at the cost of forcing us to rely entirely on faith to know him.
but that maybe he can't allow us to know that he's there for some big reason, even though he really wants us to know.
Even accepting that God is for whatever reason unable to allow use to know he exists, this still wouldn't cover why there would be a requirement of faith or why it's treated as valuable thing to have.
Even accepting that God is for whatever reason unable to allow use to know he exists, this still wouldn't cover why there would be a requirement of faith or why it's treated as valuable thing to have.
Maybe it's not so much a requirement of faith as God thinking, "All right, the only way they can feel my influence is through faith, so I need to emphasize that faith is incredibly important because if I don't, then the only other way I can influence them is by revealing myself, and then Satan can do whatever he wants to this world." I know that's a lotta maybes, but keeping in mind what EmperorPalpatine quoted from Revelations, it would make more sense that, at least in the physical world, God is more on the defensive and doesn't have as many options as Satan. In other words, God maybe doesn't require faith but just wants us to have faith so we can have some access to his influence. And if good people don't have faith, they're still good people, so it all works out. If bad people have faith, maybe God can try to change their ways since they open themselves to him. The only bad thing would be bad people that don't have faith, because all they can be influenced by are people in this world.
I don't tend to agree with a lot of those "God only saves believers" kinda stuff because it really isn't fair to people that are equal to or better in character and really are only different because of either who raised them or conclusions they came to based on a lack of evidence or reason to believe. I'd say it's closer to "believers have an edge on knowing how to be good people", if anything at all. Or quite possibly, "believers are wrong" :P
@BigP08 The only reason I can think of for God not showing up or doing things is because it would partially infringe on His bet with Satan. God claims man will rule man only to his injury, Satan claims otherwise. God's letting Satan do whatever he wants for now. If God does anything directly, He'll take the blame for bad stuff. He dosen't want to be an accomplice.
The only reason I can think of for God not showing up or doing things is because it would partially infringe on His bet with Satan. God claims man will rule man only to his injury, Satan claims otherwise. God's letting Satan do whatever he wants for now. If God does anything directly, He'll take the blame for bad stuff. He dosen't want to be an accomplice.
Ok, I see what you mean. That actually kinda falls in line with my Ellimist vs Crayak analogy (The Ellimist seemed like he could do anything for the Animorphs but most of the time he didn't do anything, then it turns out Crayak and him have rules and bets and stuff), although for all I know it could be nothing like that. But yeah, my post isn't based on a particular religion and is mostly food for thought for those that are open minded to a god that isn't omni-everything.
Ok, I see what you mean. That actually kinda falls in line with my Ellimist vs Crayak analogy (The Ellimist seemed like he could do anything for the Animorphs but most of the time he didn't do anything, then it turns out Crayak and him have rules and bets and stuff), although for all I know it could be nothing like that. But yeah, my post isn't based on a particular religion and is mostly food for thought for those that are open minded to a god that isn't omni-everything.
We can sit here and write stories all day, but that does not give them a chance to make any since or have any bearing on reality. Maybe god is actually a human, but kind of like superman has to keep his identity secret. He was found out once, but faked dead in order to escape notice. After that he was noticed again, so he pretended that he was revived, then escaped his friends. He then continued to hide, but had to stop doing flashy things in order to be found out, witch would explain everything. Does that make since? Only in the land of fiction. Is that what happened? No. Write all you like, but what is the purpose of your story if it is not based in reality?
@314d1: Mage asked why would a god be so heavily focused on faith (or require faith, I didn't bring an actual quote) so I was providing what I thought was the reason or a reason why God wouldn't be able to or would choose not to reveal himself to everyone. And yeah, I maybe shouldn't have used an Animorphs analogy cause that makes it sound more like a religious science fiction novel in the making. But the purpose of my story was why a god would decide not to reveal himself. I really wasn't trying to steer towards science fiction, I was just trying to fill the gap in the Bible for why doesn't God reveal himself. But I suppose it did go a little off topic into the land of science fiction and stuff, so fair enough. I kinda like your superman twist though. It's a little more fun.
