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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,255 posts
Regent

Fortunately, no, this is not God who hurts us, but the devil, who is also as real as God, and being evil, he's more active among us. The devil always sends temptations, and if we'll follow them, we'll sin and harm our souls. We are always free to choose the side, be it God or devil. But we should test the choices against our conscience to determine what choice leads to God and what choice leads to the devil. If a person has decided to not listen to his conscience, he will eventually choose the devil's ways and will start his descent.

What I mean is... you're getting hurt when you go against god's commandments. Who put up those commandments? God. Who decides to follow them or not? We do. We are told by both god and the devil what we should do. You said, if we choose to follow the devil, we sin and thus get hurt; so getting hurt is a consequence of choice. Who decided that we get hurt when we sin? The devil shouldn't care for it since he got us anyway then. So I only see the possibility of it being god's work; that or the work of a higher instance even than god, which decided that god's way was the real way and which hurts anyone not following it, independent of god's doing.
You could say, the devil is evil, so he surely wants to hurt us anyway. But, since we're supposed to be children of god, since god created us and our souls, and not the devil, then should the devil really be able to directly inflict harm to us? I thought the only thing he can do is mislead us, bring us away from god; isn't this the only harm he can do?
Other question, as children of god, why are we so susceptible to temptation? It kinda seems like god wanted us to be weak-willed, in opposition to most of his angels. Why that difference?
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

So we should stone people to death for even the most minor of things?

Yeah dude, you play Darksiders and kill Angels we gonna **** you right up.

Or if you used The Lords name unjustly. I mean GOD, why would you do that?
Jesus Christ, peoples ignorance nowadays.

...

- H
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Yes, prove to me being gay is a choice

*grins* Ask Kasic for that, he already stated his homosexuality. I will not overthrow my own sexual identification for a single show-off.


Thank you so much Vesper for showing just how much attention you give other people's posts. I have not once said i'm gay, E1337, however, has more than once. At least get names straight before trying to flame other people.

As for you saying that you were still investigating why it's bad...IF YOU ALREADY HAVE NO REASON, WHY ARE YOU SPOUTING SUCH BIGOTRY? I have very little tolerance left for your absolute ****.

Here's an old, old, old argument for you. If "god" is so nice and loving, why does he even let the devil stick around?
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

If there's a small chance I can "convert" someone to "see the light", I don't want it lowered.


You aren't going to convert the one you are debating with. The most you can hope to achieve is to give those observing the debate the tools to avoid falling into the closedminded and bigoted way of thinking that is being displayed. And that is the only reason I even bother debating anymore.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

How can someone enjoy Heaven, knowing someone they love is being tortured in hell?
Did they forget that person existed?
Did they stop caring about that person?
Would either of these really be acceptable choices?

A hypothetical.
"There is a daycare center where at least five children have been killed because electrical outlets are exposed in the playroom. The staff maintains that they're not responsible, since they told the children two years ago not to go near the exposed wiring. They maintain that they care deeply for each child and grieve when one gets hurt, but it's up to the children to teach each other about the danger."
Any such daycare would be shut down for neglect.

How is this story really any different from how God handled things with Adam and Eve?
How is it any different from how he continues to handle things?

If God is omniscient (knows everything past present and future), why would he make me knowing I would be an atheist and go to hell for eternity? This question goes for anyone who will go to hell.

Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:4-7 (KJV)
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 5:5 (KJV)
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Now just the bolded parts
God: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Snake (Satan?): "Ye shall not surely die" "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened"

What Happened: "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked" "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

So who was the one who lied in this story?
Why would God place the tree and the snake there in the first place if not to temped, and knowing full well that they would be (omniscience)?

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

I will not overthrow my own sexual identification for a single show-off.


I wouldn't even ask to preform a sexual act. All you have to do is choice to feel sexual aroused by looking at something like this.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/sexy_guy_model12812.jpg

If homosexuality is a choice then this should be no problem for you. I'm sure God will forgive you if you do.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

I think the point has been made guys. No need to drive this thread into the ground with barely veiled (and borderline inappropriate) sexual innuendos.

Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Homosexuality is not a learned trait, it's based on genetics.

I personally doubt that this is entirely true. I've read that a lot of attraction (e.g. read about the Westmarcker effect) is due to imprinting during the first few years of one's life.
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Masturbation, sodomy and other sexual behavior that's deemed perverted is so because it uses sexuality for something that is not procrastination, for what it is designed

Many things do not serve the same purposes for what they were "designed." This in itself is not bad.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

I personally doubt that this is entirely true. I've read that a lot of attraction (e.g. read about the Westmarcker effect) is due to imprinting during the first few years of one's life.


There have been children raise in the exact same environment and yet one turned out gay while the other not. There have been children raise in all respects to be female and yet turned out to still be heterosexual. The Westermarck effect had nothing to do with sexual orientation but rather provided an explanation on why we don't often see positive assortative pairing habits between siblings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
Case studies of sexual orientation in twins
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

There have been children raise in the exact same environment and yet one turned out gay while the other not.

But with identical twins, one can be gay and the other can turn out not-gay.

Again, it's most likely a genetic tendency + imprinting that causes it.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Again, it's most likely a genetic tendency + imprinting that causes it.


Both being raised in the same environment and both have the same genes it should result in both being of the same sexual orientation. With epigenetics we can explain how one can result in being homosexual and the other not as the gene expression can vary between them.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Who decided that we get hurt when we sin? The devil shouldn't care for it since he got us anyway then. So I only see the possibility of it being god's work
God didn't design us to ever sin, though He granted us free will and thus the ability to turn away from Him and sin. Yes, it's His work that if we sin, we get hurt. But, if a child did something and got hurt, does a parent explain him why he got hurt so he won't repeat this? God wishes us to distinguish truth from lies, a good deed from a sin, and He wishes us to not sin by making us be hurt if we commit sins.
as children of god, why are we so susceptible to temptation? It kinda seems like god wanted us to be weak-willed, in opposition to most of his angels.
Yes, God made us imperfect, probably because of angels being made perfect, and some of them irreversably turned away from God, thus becoming demons. Our imperfectness allows us to be fallible, but also allows us to understand if we fell and ask for help, from both God ang neighbors. Our imperfectness is what allows us to grow while we live, in what Church calls "holiness", that is life with God. Temptations are needed so we can have examples of what's bad and what's good, and can learn to choose good.
So we should stone people to death for even the most minor of things?
You probably mistake the two sides of laws: the sentences available for breaking a certain law can be changed, like removing a death penalty for certain crimes, and instating a long-term jail instead, while the definitions of crimes do not change, thus, homosexual actions are still sins or "crimes".
Thank you so much Vesper for showing just how much attention you give other people's posts. I have not once said i'm gay, E1337, however, has more than once.
Oh man, I'm awfully sorry. This also means that I have overdone in this debate, starting to debate with the only reason of proving me right instead of the reason of explaining God's ways.
How can someone enjoy Heaven, knowing someone they love is being tortured in hell?
Who has left the world first, the one in Heaven or the one that ended up in Hell? However, in both cases the loving one will pray God for the other's salvation. If the loving one's love is true, his prayers will also be true and guided by love, and God will grant that person salvation. In case of the loving one to enter Heaven prior to the other one's leaving the world, the loving one's love is proven to be true, thus he will be heard.
The staff maintains that they're not responsible, since they told the children two years ago not to go near the exposed wiring.
This association is wrong, since God constantly reminds His children about what not to do, and more so when the events were back there in the paradise, since Adam and Eve were a lot closer to God than the best of us are.
If God is omniscient (knows everything past present and future), why would he make me knowing I would be an atheist and go to hell for eternity? This question goes for anyone who will go to hell.
He gives you signs of His presence and urges you to turn back to Him, and when a person dies, his book of life will be presented to him with full explanation of what choices he made that led him into the state of denying God. This book contains the entire set of information about the person in question, including his thoughts and hidden intentions, and by these thoughts, intentions and deeds will a person be judged. While you are here, you can do actions that will change your future outcome, you just need to decide that you will.
Why would God place the tree and the snake there in the first place if not to temped, and knowing full well that they would be (omniscience)?
Please read above in this post regarding temptations.
All you have to do is choice to feel sexual aroused by looking at something like this
I'm not. And, you are tempting others to become sexually aroused by the pictures you provide. Remember that Jesus said: "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!"

I think I'll stop the discussion about homosexuality. I have tried to find out logical reasons about why homosexuality is wrong, have found several, and also have found them demolished by plain reductio ad absurdum. But, I have also found that I was wrong in determinstion of sin here. Only homosexual actions are sins, but homosexuality in itself is not a sin but a cross, and a heavy one. It's normal I think it's normal that some of you who are aware of their tendency to go into sodomy succumb to this temptation, though there are indeed those that are in constant fight for their holiness. I have fell to the false dichotomy of homo vs hetero, while there is a middle condition of solo, with one of the possible lifestyles of being a solo adopting parent. It seems to be correct that if a homo-inclined person is enforced into heterosexuality, it can lead to severe disaster in his family, but this is no excuse for a person to attempt to go for same-sex coupling instead. Homosexual inclination can be a given, but committing a same-sex intercourse is a choice.
PracticalManiac
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PracticalManiac
295 posts
Peasant

I'm not gay myself, but can't people be gay genetically and simply by choice?

Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

God didn't design us to ever sin, though He granted us free will and thus the ability to turn away from Him and sin. Yes, it's His work that if we sin, we get hurt. But, if a child did something and got hurt, does a parent explain him why he got hurt so he won't repeat this? God wishes us to distinguish truth from lies, a good deed from a sin, and He wishes us to not sin by making us be hurt if we commit sins.

BS.
If you knew jack "sin" was natural. Being selfish, survival of the fittest (at least was), and getting whatever you could mostly through whatever means necessary is what we used to do. And it's born into us. If you knew anything, you'd know free will isn't as free as you think, there are small influences that are so subtle you wouldn't realize they're there until you actually test it.

as children of god, why are we so susceptible to temptation? It kinda seems like god wanted us to be weak-willed, in opposition to most of his angels.

Quit assuming it's real till you prove it real.
Thanks.

Yes, God made us imperfect, probably because of angels being made perfect, and some of them irreversably turned away from God, thus becoming demons. Our imperfectness allows us to be fallible, but also allows us to understand if we fell and ask for help, from both God ang neighbors. Our imperfectness is what allows us to grow while we live, in what Church calls "holiness", that is life with God. Temptations are needed so we can have examples of what's bad and what's good, and can learn to choose good.

Prove it. All you said was what you believe, not why, not how.

thus, homosexual actions are still sins or "crimes".

And you've the right to judge? No, it isn't the word of God because you didn't prove it. You are being the judge based on a 2,000 year old library book.

starting to debate with the only reason of proving me right instead of the reason of explaining God's ways.

Same thing. You haven't yet proved God's right, and thus taken the thread off topic. Prove him right otherwise it's just a defense / offense mechanism, as far as I'm concerned.

Who has left the world first, the one in Heaven or the one that ended up in Hell? However, in both cases the loving one will pray God for the other's salvation. If the loving one's love is true, his prayers will also be true and guided by love, and God will grant that person salvation. In case of the loving one to enter Heaven prior to the other one's leaving the world, the loving one's love is proven to be true, thus he will be heard.

Again, you've no proof. No biblical texts are going to cut it, nor are cool pictures of words in the sky or something. God doesn't know subtlety, he's spent most of his creation life making big nice minecraft blocks and people.

Oh and just to make sure no, you can't prove he himself helps you and therefore that is not an argument.

He gives you signs of His presence and urges you to turn back to Him, and when a person dies, his book of life will be presented to him with full explanation of what choices he made that led him into the state of denying God. This book contains the entire set of information about the person in question, including his thoughts and hidden intentions, and by these thoughts, intentions and deeds will a person be judged. While you are here, you can do actions that will change your future outcome, you just need to decide that you will.

I'd be alright with that if God was actually a malevolant guy. But even his moralities are wrong and disgusting. Not to mention, you haven't proved any of this. They're disgusting because from simple instinct I and many others can think or "better" rules that infact conflict with "God's"..

And, you are tempting others to become sexually aroused by the pictures you provide.

No harm done as long as God isn't proven as far as I'm concerned. Given your previous post I just answered to shouldn't God see that I am indeed not going against him but the fact that there is so little evidence of proof of him being here?
Does he expect us to be so illogical? Because if so, he's underestimated us severely and that is not a defense, by the way as he is meant to be all-knowing.

Remember that Jesus said:

Again, I have to say. Prove it.

I'm not gay myself, but can't people be gay genetically and simply by choice?

Genetically? Not really, unless they were genetically modified.
Choice? Hell yeah, it's nearly always their choice.

- H
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