ForumsWEPRTheism and Atheism

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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Well, we belive that we should follow the ten commandments. that's the summary of our morals


So we should all be Christian? So we should kiss your god's but? So we should stone everyone who works on the sabbath?

n the ten commandments it doesn't say anything about gay marriage, so why should we not find it okay.


Because other parts of the bible say that it is not ok. So are you just going to take one part of the bible and go "I like this part" Then ignore all the rest? Why would that part be any less false than the rest of it?

nd i understand so christians don't find it okay because they take the bibles stories compleatly litteraly and think they're all 100% percent accurate.


So when it says "Stone the homosexuals", it really means "Give dem hugz and luvz"? How could you take that to be good?

. I'm sorry for them because they shouldn't.


So basically you are saying "Pick the parts you like, ignore all the icky parts!"? Then what makes those parts any more true than the rest of it?
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Well, we belive that we should follow the ten commandments.

Yeah, but the ten commandments are not completely inclusive of all morality that you believe in, no?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

A true athiest dosen't go slamming believers, and trying to prove them wrong.


There are no guiding principles in atheism stating what actions one can and can not take. So there is nothing in atheism that states that one can't slam believers. Also keep in mind this area of the forum is for debate. (The request that we don't offer opposing views in the OP was foolish.)

What astonishes me is that none of you have acknowledged the fact that Christianity and science are completely compatible. Science can only further the understanding of the greatness of God.


Religion including Christianity is faith based. This in direct contrast to science.

While a radical Christian may say "the world was created in 7 days therefore the big bang theory is wrong" A well informed logical Christian will see this as a metaphor, and not take it literally.


There is no clear line in the Bible between what is fact and what is metaphor in the Bible. We could just as easily say God is just a metaphor as you have said that a 7 day creation is.

am a Christian and the way I interpret science is this:
God initiated the Big Bang. I don't think he snapped his fingers and made all we know appear out of thin air. Why can't God have used the Big bang? THERE IS NO REASON WHY NOT.


There isn't any reason why not any more then then there is no reason a purple invisible intangible elephant sneezing was the cause of the Big Bang. But such statements are not science as they are not knowledge but mere assertion. We don't know the exact cause of the Big Bang. What we do have are hypotheses, which "God did it" also can not be since a hypothesis in science must be based on observation. "God did it" can only be regarded as speculation.

Science cannot disprove faith, nor can it prove it for the


Science invalidates any faith based claims as by nature they operate without objective evidence.

It is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God.


Then there is no reason for us to accept any claims of his existence.

If an object cannot move without being moved, how did the universe start moving.


The law of cause and effect only applies in spacetime "before" (using the term very loosely) The Big Bang there was no spacetime. So such laws don't apply.

You could call the big bang God, as it started all life.


No the Big Bang did not start life, it's just the expansion of the universe from an immensely dense singularity. Abiogenesis deals with the origin of life.

I can understand that those who never beieved in God to begin with cant put him alongside science. All I'm asking is that you allow Christians to believe what they think, and stop calling them all science deniers, because we aren't.


I do allow Christians to think what they want. But when it get's aired in public I have the right to call bull. Even then I pick and choose where I do this. I find online a good place as I have access to the information required to debunk such claims literally at my fingertips. I like to do it here in particular given the debates can have influence on the next generation and the forum provides a neutral arena to air those views.
Furthermore when those Christians try to impose themselves through laws or insert their beliefs into a school curriculum then they have infringed on my rights.
Devious
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Devious
84 posts
Nomad

Because of the big bang there is the universe, if there were no universe then there would be nowhere for life to exist, therefore the big bang allowed life to exist.

I feel my rights infringed upon when an atheist hates on me for wearing a cross in public. Toleration in necessary on all sides.

As to nature and its objectivity, religion is proved wrong by your understanding of what faith is. You cannot formulate a truly convincing argument without first having a true understanding of what you are arguing against.

There are also no claims for me to accept his nonexistence.

Since when was it unreasonable to combine scientific fact and faith.

As an atheist do you not want to maintain atheism as a perfectly fine way of life? So would it not be logical to maintain a public image that corresponded to this for the good of all other atheists?

314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Because of the big bang there is the universe, if there were no universe then there would be nowhere for life to exist, therefore the big bang allowed life to exist.


Little jump there, isn't it?

I feel my rights infringed upon when an atheist hates on me for wearing a cross in public. Toleration in necessary on all sides.


Since when do atheists "hates on you" for wearing a cross in public? Personally, there are many people who where crosses around me and I don't care. However I can see it being the opposite, if I where to where an Atheist T-shirt, then I would probably get "hated on" some. I would have to attempt this experiment some time.

As to nature and its objectivity, religion is proved wrong by your understanding of what faith is. You cannot formulate a truly convincing argument without first having a true understanding of what you are arguing against.


You are arguing against "Wow this is cool. I like this story, so I think I will believe in it! All the evidence against it? Who cares! I will just plug my ears and yell 'nananana' really loudly!"

There are also no claims for me to accept his nonexistence.


So you believe in unicorns then, since nothing can prove their nonexistence? And so is the great king of LSDJFklajfd;lka? And fairytale? And dragons?

Since when was it unreasonable to combine scientific fact and faith.


Since 33 A.D when your god was pretty much disprove with a little saying.

As an atheist do you not want to maintain atheism as a perfectly fine way of life?


Maintain? It would have to be accepted as acceptable first.

So would it not be logical to maintain a public image that corresponded to this for the good of all other atheists?


So you are saying we should hide to not offend religions, just for the sake of not offending them? You do realize that many are offended just by us being atheists? And since when was what we are doing bad? Pointing out violence in religion and how idiotic the religion is is somehow bad?
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

There are also no claims for me to accept his nonexistence.

Here's one:
1. ~(p ^ ~p) - Law of Non-contradiction.
2. (p --> q) --> (~q --> ~p) - Reductio Ad Absurdum. By denying the consequent, you disprove the antecedent.
3. ~D --> (p ^ ~p) - Not-Determinism (~D) implies a contradiction.
4. (~D --> (p ^ ~p)) --> (~(p ^ ~p) --> ~~D) - Use of Reductio Ad Absurdum (2) in this particular instance.
5. (~(p ^ ~p) --> ~~D) - Modus Ponens (3,4).
6. ~~D - Modus Ponens (2,5).
7. ~~D --> D - Not-Not something implies something.
8. Therefore, D - Determinism is inevitable!!
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Because of the big bang there is the universe, if there were no universe then there would be nowhere for life to exist, therefore the big bang allowed life to exist.


Way to cover your blunder by making it sound like you actually knew what you were talking about instead of just repeating words.

I feel my rights infringed upon when an atheist hates on me for wearing a cross in public. Toleration in necessary on all sides.


You're right, your rights are being infringed if you're being verbally attacked just for wearing a cross. That shouldn't be happening.

religion is proved wrong by your understanding of what faith is
.

No, religion is proved wrong by it's self contradictions, second hand accounts, emotional personal testimony, hypocrisy at the highest levels of the structure of it, conflicting claims and many, many more things.

Since when was it unreasonable to combine scientific fact and faith.


It's not faith if it's fact. Faith is believing in something when you have no reason to. Fact is proven.

So would it not be logical to maintain a public image that corresponded to this for the good of all other atheists?


Why this is so hard for religious people to understand...WE HAVE NO GROUP. We have no official representation. We have no book or rules to follow. We have NO structure. Atheism is simply a lack of belief. THAT'S IT. NOTHING ELSE. GO NOWHERE FROM THAT. What one Atheist does should not affect any other atheist, because we believe we are who we are, and not made by some diety or floating god in the sky. You can as much blame one atheist for something as you can blame another apple for the one next to it for being rotton.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Why can't God have used the Big bang? THERE IS NO REASON WHY NOT.

You can't just fill something unknown with 'goddidit'.
You see, this is their main standpoint, they're flailing with Occam's razor with attempts to give a reason for everything, while actually the SIMPLER approach for a human is to allow God to be in their view of the world. Science does a great deal of discovering how the world runs, but is unable to prove or disprove God as He is infinitely greater than science. Science's researches are like a man from a desert coming to the ocean, taking a spoon and gathering some water, and then looking in and yelling "See, there are no whales!"

You know Devious, you are being pulled to the same limits that I was pulled to, to try to prove God using pure logic. You state it's impossible, I agree, but they will never agree, they say &quotrove this", "you have the burden of proof", etc etc. You might as well read this topic through and find out that most steps of this discussion have already been made.
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Man created God, not the other way around.

wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

SIMPLER approach for a human is to allow God to be in their view of the world.


Being afraid of complexity is no reason to deny facts. Ignorance is not a valid excuse.

but they will never agree, they say &quotrove this", "you have the burden of proof", etc etc. You might as well read this topic through and find out that most steps of this discussion have already been made.


Denying the truth does not make it less true.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

You know Devious, you are being pulled to the same limits that I was pulled to, to try to prove God using pure logic. You state it's impossible, I agree, but they will never agree, they say &quotrove this", "you have the burden of proof", etc etc. You might as well read this topic through and find out that most steps of this discussion have already been made.


I don't even necessarily want logic, I want a straight answer that isn't some personal story that could be said of anyone.

How do you know that your religion is right?

Why does the bible teach so many attrocities if it's the word of god.

Why couldn't god make something, a bit, um, I don't know, less murderous to simply get rid of our sin?

Why did he even make the tree w/ the fruit.

Why does he let satan run around.

Why does god blame everyone for two people's mistakes?

Why are there so many religions if one is so obviously right, but none can agree?
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

while actually the SIMPLER approach for a human is to allow God to be in their view of the world.

God is very convenient, because you can just claim He's above logic, that we cannot know Him, etc. So He is imperceptible, and cannot have logic, science, or anything else apply to him.

However, God, if He exists, given the above, seems to exhibit a lack of interaction with the universe. That which does not interact with the universe cannot be said to exist within the same system.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

there are a number of things that can be done to speed up the process such as treating the shroud with reducing sugars (which evidence suggests it was), having the presence of proteins (which could be provided by the body itself), removing water (easy enough to do in a dry desert environment), increase temperature or pH.
Well, this theory is nice as a theory. Treating with reducing sugars is a necessary element for Maillard reaction to ever occur, as far as I can understand. Presence of proteins (bio-catalysts I assume) requires additional fluids and goes contrary to removing water and the fact that there's no damage on the shroud. You might, however, make an experiment to reproduce such effects. Take a recently dead body, wrap it in a premade shroud of like technology, put it in a tomb (there are still existing tombs there in Palestine), close it with a stone, wait 30-40 hours then remove the shroud (and bury the body, for the good). Then put the shroud in a wooden case for a year (I don't think more is required) and see if there will be traces of an image of a body. Document your evidence, including the comparison in possible strength of an image on the Shroud of Turin to what will happen to yours, and present these results to the community.
Why does it have to be a special thing? For all we know some guy did something worse than normal and they got creative in punishment.
Hmm, yes, my bad, however historians disagree on the commonness of nailing vs tying while performing a crucifixion. But, there is another nitpick about the man on the Shroud - he was buried, and buried according to Jewish tradition, while normally crucified persons were forbidden to be buried, like those 6000 jews crucified in the 0060s. So this alone is unusual to a significant degree.
True it doesn't provide evidence for any of the miraculous claims in the Bible. If it was shown to definitively Jesus's it would only provide evidence for a historical Jesus. Which while I still have my doubts is quite possible to have existed.
Hey, you claimed that the Bible is a historical book, and now you doubt of its historic part being true?! This is inconsistent.
Deal. Let homosexuals marry, stop harrying people for having abortions, get out of the way of stem cell research, stop letting priests molest children and don't incite hatred against other religious groups and i'm sure everyone here would be happy to let you live in happy fun time land.
We are bound to defend life and love in all forms, and we are bound to attempt to give you understanding that abortion is killing children, embryonal stem cells research that leads to destruction of embryos is killing children (the Church has no objection if you get spem cells from adults or from what remains after a child was born and what is normally no longer needed, umbilical cord, placenta and the like, that has fulfilled its function and is now thrown away), homo marrying is fornication in its utmost, molesting children is fornication again, and inciting hatred is not the way it should be (yes, we must stop hating others indeed). Yes, "leave us believe in what we want to believe" is a wrong move from our side, probably it's the main reason of why am I still in this discussion.
as Christians, you believe that morality originates from God, no??
Therefore, you believe that no virtues exist without God...
This "therefore" is non sequitur. You're stating "God -> morality" and concluding "~God -> ~morality".
Do you believe that abortion should be illegal and why?
Because we believe (and this was revealed to us several times) that a child receives a soul at the moment of his conception, so whenever a zygote or an embryo dies, it's the end of that child's life. We also know that baptizing is "second birth" to the Holy Spirit, so all past sins including Adam's sin are forgotten, so if a person couldn't commit sin but was baptized and died, he will be saved and will go straight to Heaven. But we are not sure about the fate of souls that die prior to being baptized, such as souls that die in their mother's womb, regardless of reason. We don't know if a child is given a too short life by God or by men, if a spontaneous abortion happens, but we know that if an abortion was intended, it's a mortal sin, and all who are involved participate in the guilt for it. We also know that evil done by one is somehow spread onto others, sometimes making others choose to sin again, and thus spread evil further. One of the examples is this:

"You are in a subway, you are in a hurry and you force your way through the crowd. You have hit a person on your way and did not apologize. That person appeared to be a cardiac surgeon thhat was also going to work, and he was not able to suppress the emotions that arise from your actions prior to making a critical operation, thus his patient died. This patient appeared to be a brother to a bus driver who, when informed of his death, failed to withstand the grief, but was already driving a bus full of people, so he got in a traffic accident resulting in more deaths and injuries. So your hitting caused numerous deaths, some guilt of them dying is also on your shoulders, even if you don't know this."
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

You see, this is their main standpoint, they're flailing with Occam's razor with attempts to give a reason for everything, while actually the SIMPLER approach for a human is to allow God to be in their view of the world.


God is simply adding a variable that is unneeded, thus in reality it only complicates things rather then simplifies them.

Science does a great deal of discovering how the world runs, but is unable to prove or disprove God as He is infinitely greater than science.


Science doesn't make any claims either way about Gods existence because there are no objective observations of God. for many people as it applies to belief in said God this creates a failing in Gods methods. If this God were to make himself objectively known to the point of it being demonstrably so we would have to accept his existence and we could base our acceptance or rejection of any offers from said God based solely on it's merits alone.

Science's researches are like a man from a desert coming to the ocean, taking a spoon and gathering some water, and then looking in and yelling "See, there are no whales!"


We could only say under those conditions there are no whales. The theist claim of God is like someone claiming the whales appear and pass by every morning. Then when the researcher sits out watching in the morning and no whales appear and the researcher asks "where are the whales?" they get told that they "just didn't want to see the whales hard enough, you just have to take my word for it". As the researcher asks around he begins to get more varied and contradictory statements about the appearance and behavior of the whales. with each claim being equally unverified and no observation of the whales presents itself, there is simply a point the researcher has to say these whales likely don't exist.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

I don't even necessarily want logic, I want a straight answer that isn't some personal story that could be said of anyone.
Since this is not directed to you, and you don't agree with the initial proposition, the straight answer will also not convince you.
Religion including Christianity is faith based. This in direct contrast to science.
Did science already prove that there is no God? You have provided numerous links but all of the information can be explained without ruling out God's existance.
Science invalidates any faith based claims as by nature they operate without objective evidence
You have been presented with evidence that science can't explain. And all you do is searching for controversy in its explanation and blatantly conclude that the entire thing is false.
Denying the truth does not make it less true.
Claiming something is false without proving does not make the statement less true. This discussion ends in stalemate.
God is simply adding a variable that is unneeded, thus in reality it only complicates things rather then simplifies them.
Any proof?
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