Why are we at War? - Armor Games Community

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iMogwai

2,027 posts

Peasant

Posted May 19, '11 12:47pm UTC

These countries have been killing each other for the last 10000 years! Let them!

Most countries have a history of war, usually with their neighbours. In some cases, other nations have joined in (WW1 & WW2, for example). Whenever a nation joins an ongoing war it's either because they feel they have something to gain from going to war, or a lot to lose by not going to war. The middle east is famous for its oil, so I'm guessing that is one reason for other nations' involvement.

Make money by selling them arms! Not the arms and legs of our soldiers!

Soldiers are aware of the risks and they choose to fight. Regardless of what their motivation is, it was their choice.

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CourtJester

6,158 posts

Peasant

Posted May 19, '11 1:36pm UTC

Not a lot of oil in Afghanistan! Only Opium. If you look at them historically, they have never been defeated (for long). Alexander the Great left the country when his soldiers were getting murdered a few at a time. Sound familiar with the present day situation?

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Sonatavarius

1,322 posts

Farmer

Posted May 19, '11 3:01pm UTC

if you'll examine the situation... ours is not a war atm to stop people from different nations from killing each other...

Its to stop governments from slaughtering their own people... I've used the following symbolism before. a group of people have a lot of innocent people lined up @ a curb... they have these innocent people's mouths opened and positioned so that the top jaw is on the top of the curb and the bottom jaw is at the side of the curb where it meets the street... they're going one by one to these people and stomping down on the top of their skulls. a lot of these people that are getting massacred by their own gov't haven't even done anything wrong... a few of them have expressed their opinion about being democratic instead of lead by the dictator... so to quell these thoughts the dictator has his men stomp the thoughts right out of their skulls. your argument is that we shouldn't do anything about that... some people see it as different. some see it as hypocritical for us to call ourselves free and to not help those who are trying to be... some just see it as a crime against humanity to allow such actions to continue. another sentiment is... if we don't help them... no1 will. so... do we sit here and watch the curb stomping and say "not my problem..."? .."or do we help the innocent people and those vying for freedom?"

if you'll examine the situation... ours is not a war atm to stop people from different nations from killing each other...\r\n\r\nIts to stop governments from slaughtering their own people... I've used the following symbolism before.  a group of people have a lot of innocent people lined up @ a curb... they have these innocent people's mouths opened and positioned so that the top jaw is on the top of the curb and the bottom jaw is at the side of the curb where it meets the street... they're going one by one to these people and stomping down on the top of their skulls.  a lot of these people that are getting massacred by their own gov't haven't even done anything wrong... a few of them have expressed their opinion about being democratic instead of lead by the dictator... so to quell these thoughts the dictator has his men stomp the thoughts right out of their skulls.  your argument is that we shouldn't do anything about that... some people see it as different.  some see it as hypocritical for us to call ourselves free and to not help those who are trying to be... some just see it as a crime against humanity to allow such actions to continue.  another sentiment is... if we don't help them... no1 will.  so... do we sit here and watch the curb stomping and say "not my problem..."? .."or do we help the innocent people and those vying for freedom?"

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jroyster22

755 posts

Peasant

Posted May 19, '11 5:37pm UTC

War is a very confusing subject to understand. There is so much you dont know as well as me. There could be potential risks against western allies if we don't. You have to be open minded an dnot only think from opinion you are drawing up from your own conclusions.... "the more you know, the more you don't know..."

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Armed_Blade

1,482 posts

Shepherd

Posted May 19, '11 11:42pm UTC

Soldiers are aware of the risks and they choose to fight. Regardless of what their motivation is, it was their choice.

So their bravery and sacrifice should be used away at someone's whim? I think it has more value to it than that, and I'd rather have soldiers for the upcoming war against X rather than an encounter in the Middle East that will go down in history as an utter failure. [personal opinion about the failure part]

Only Opium

And we can't sell that, now can we?

And yes, he has a point, Afghanistan is unconquered territory for a reason. The country may be poor, but nearly every person there has a cultural history regarding war, and the terrain of the land is literally a geographic fortress.

do we sit here and watch the curb stomping and say "not my problem..."? .."or do we help the innocent people and those vying for freedom?

"

Lastly, there are other ways to support democracy in this world without military force.
Take, for example, Vietnam. Before the actual war between the US and the Vietnamese, the South Vietnamese man we had in place (Ngo Dhim, I think was his first and middle name) was only there temporarily, and we said that the country can have elections a year later.
We chose to stop those elections out of knowledge that there was favorable support for Ho Chi Minh, the communist.

^ We REPRESSED them, they were not being repressed [or, in our minds, were choosing repression]

So I don't think we need to be the world's policeman in all cases, I think it is good that as a large nation that countries rely on we should help the world in times of need, but it is not in our benefit or in the benefit of any other for us to just barge right in and tell people how they should govern themselves based on our glorious ideology.

I mean, honestly, look at Iraq. We've stopped your so called 'curb stomping' and now they'd rather stomp us for ruining their country and for many, their lives.

I agree with jroyster, though, it's obviously not that simple and there's stuff we don't know. But I still feel that overall, with what I do know against what I may not, I'm rather sure this war is not the best thing for the US right now.

[quote]Soldiers are aware of the risks and they choose to fight. Regardless of what their motivation is, it was their choice.[/quote]\r\n\r\nSo their bravery and sacrifice should be used away at someone's whim? I think it has more value to it than that, and I'd rather have soldiers for the upcoming war against X rather than an encounter in the Middle East that will go down in history as an utter failure. [personal opinion about the failure part]\r\n\r\n\r\n [quote]Only Opium[/quote]\r\nAnd we can't sell that, now can we?\r\n\r\nAnd yes, he has a point, Afghanistan is unconquered territory for a reason. The country may be poor, but nearly every person there has a cultural history regarding war, and the terrain of the land is literally a geographic fortress.\r\n\r\n[quote]do we sit here and watch the curb stomping and say "not my problem..."? .."or do we help the innocent people and those vying for freedom?[/quote]"\r\n\r\nLastly, there are other ways to support democracy in this world without military force.\r\nTake, for example, Vietnam. Before the actual war between the US and the Vietnamese, the South Vietnamese man we had in place (Ngo Dhim, I think was his first and middle name) was only there temporarily, and we said that the country can have elections a year later.\r\nWe chose to stop those elections out of knowledge that there was favorable support for Ho Chi Minh, the communist.\r\n\r\n^ We REPRESSED them, they were not being repressed [or, in our minds, were choosing repression]\r\n\r\nSo I don't think we need to be the world's policeman in all cases, I think it is good that as a large nation that countries rely on we should help the world in times of need, but it is not in our benefit or in the benefit of any other for us to just barge right in and tell people how they should govern themselves based on our glorious ideology. \r\n\r\nI mean, honestly, look at Iraq. We've stopped your so called 'curb stomping' and now they'd rather stomp us for ruining their country and for many, their lives. \r\n\r\nI agree with jroyster, though, it's obviously not that simple and there's stuff we don't know. But I still feel that overall, with what I do know against what I may  not, I'm rather sure this war is not the best thing for the US right now.

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Sonatavarius

1,322 posts

Farmer

Posted May 19, '11 11:49pm UTC

is all of iraq opposed to us? or are the ones fighting against us a small few who just get a lot of camera time from the news stations?

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zakyman

1,627 posts

Peasant

Posted May 19, '11 11:56pm UTC

I think that we have long past overstayed in the Middle East. We have been in Afganistan for 10 years, and we have barely been able to set up a nonsecure government, uncapable of the smallest things. In the meantime, our debt is up to 99% of the GDP, and we borrow almost 15 cents of every dollar we spend. We should cut the wars from our budget, let 'em slug it out, and then march on in there in 20-30 years when they are both weakened beyond repare.

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Armed_Blade

1,482 posts

Shepherd

Posted May 19, '11 11:56pm UTC

is all of iraq opposed to us? or are the ones fighting against us a small few who just get a lot of camera time from the news stations?

Considering Iraq's history, Yes, I'd say the majority of the populace has an anti-USA view. I'm Muslim, and most of the relatives I have from Pakistan have anti/nonpositive USA views, and the people they know and the news they get [which is from more islamic based media centers] also shows the same thought.
Also, history helps to prove it, as well.
We supported Iraq only once in history against Iran, and after that, we didn't enjoy their policies, and of course we let that be known in the Gulf War.

Also, as we've done in every middle eastern conflict, we've left with contracts for millions of dollars of oil. Idk about you, but if I had oil in my patch of grass and you came and took it, I'd probably shoot you.

I mean, one of the worst things that the USA has for itself is it's economic imperialism. US companies control/influence a lot of international junk, and some people don't like it.

Furthermore, in areas where we have aggressive tactics, such as north Pakistan/South Afghanistan, we're not seeing a decline in terrorist. They keep coming. This is probably because when you bomb a building and a few others around it, some people are mad/ become mad when they lose someone, etc.

Lastly, the USA has always maintained a policy of assisting those in trouble when asked for. Nobody asked for us to barge in. We barged in because of 9/11, not because we wanted to save some oppressed peoples. We did that because we needed fluff to make it sound nicer. I mean, sure, Saddam was a terrible man, but we've been there a lot longer than the Saddam Era, and most people ask why.

[quote]is all of iraq opposed to us? or are the ones fighting against us a small few who just get a lot of camera time from the news stations?[/quote]\r\n\r\nConsidering Iraq's history, Yes, I'd say the majority of the populace has an anti-USA view. I'm Muslim, and most of the relatives I have from Pakistan have anti/nonpositive USA views, and the people they know and the news they get [which is from more islamic based media centers] also shows the same thought.\r\nAlso, history helps to prove it, as well. \r\nWe supported Iraq only once in history against Iran, and after that, we didn't enjoy their policies, and of course we let that be known in the Gulf War. \r\n\r\nAlso, as we've done in every middle eastern conflict, we've left with contracts for millions of dollars of oil. Idk about you, but if I had oil in my patch of grass and you came and took it, I'd probably shoot you. \r\n\r\nI mean, one of the worst things that the USA has for itself is it's economic imperialism. US companies control/influence a lot of international junk, and some people don't like it.\r\n\r\nFurthermore, in areas where we have aggressive tactics, such as north Pakistan/South Afghanistan, we're not seeing a decline in terrorist. They keep coming. This is probably because when you bomb a building and a few others around it, some people are mad/ become mad when they lose someone, etc.\r\n\r\nLastly, the USA has always maintained a policy of assisting those in trouble when asked for. Nobody asked for us to barge in. We barged in because of 9/11, not because we wanted to save some oppressed peoples. We did that because we needed fluff to make it sound nicer. I mean, sure, Saddam was a terrible man, but we've been there a lot longer than the Saddam Era, and most people ask why.

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Armed_Blade

1,482 posts

Shepherd

Posted May 20, '11 12:00am UTC

et 'em slug it out,

I like the whole 'leave' idea -- but who would do the slugging? Nobodies been at war there for quite a while. -- There's internal war. But I don't think anyone would like a Taliban regime in place that has full control to the Opium Trade. I feel, what is best to do, is to pull out all the combat, simply station a few men into Kabul, yet peaceful, and pull back and gradually let the Afghani government grow. Once they're set, they can win the other half of the country back themselves and we can be on our way. Since '89, if they ever have been, we've intervened as it is.

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master565

4,104 posts

Nomad

Posted May 20, '11 12:22am UTC

the last 10000 years

Last i checked, many religions don't believe the world is that old, and religion is a huge factor in the fighting.

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zakyman

1,627 posts

Peasant

Posted May 20, '11 12:25am UTC

Nooo, most wars are started by rulers who aren't content with the land they have. Ghengis Khan, Alexander the Great, Kaiser Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler...the list goes on and on.

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Sonatavarius

1,322 posts

Farmer

Posted May 20, '11 12:37am UTC

what about Ghadaffi? (did i spell that right?)

and now is it Syria that started sniping their own people the other day?

I know Egypt was able to do something about it...

...but I'm not sure that here in the modern day everyone w/o a gov't class military would be so lucky.

i think it is somewhat similar to an animal being in a trap... said animal doesn't like you. it doesn't want you touching it. It'd rather bite your hand off then have you help it. So then does that mean you leave the animal to maybe gnaw its own leg off and/or let whatever happens happens? I've had quite a few family members go over there... all of them returned. but they returned afflicted. Personally, I'd rather them not be over there. I'd rather not have family get caught up in the crap over there...

but from what I've seen... you can't just go riding the fence. or even just sitting around. (or even just supply either/both side(s) w/ anything...and if you don't supply your "allies" they'll hate you too) last time we didn't do anything we had a harbor down in Hawaii bombed. Either you can be proactive about something and lose people.... or ignore the problem till it musters up enough men/planning to fly jet liners into buildings. I do see that the problem w/ stringing up and blowing off the most malevolent and seasoned heads of the hydra don't do anything more than just that... but it takes out the worst ones... where there's hate there will always be more heads to pop up. ...and some if not all of those heads would've popped up anyway.

if any of what the media feeds us is true (highly likely its not) then Bin Laden was still planning on doing things to us as a country anyway. Instead of another terrorist attack that could've killed just as many as the last... he's dead. and if someone choreographs something then it won't be him. (if he's actually dead)

why is it again that your relatives don't like us?

the people that aren't riding the success train generally don't like the ones that are. its visible in a lot more than just international economics. the American people don't even like American gas/oil companies... gas isn't cheap for us... if you've got a problem w/ someone...say big business... then you take it to those businesses. The general populace has nothing to do with those businesses. ...and I can't help it they were the smartest with their money and ended up on top of their industry. I'm not saying I'm for it... but its like "oh... they were smarter than me and make a higher profit... and stick their noses in all kinds of different affairs that make sure they make a profit... therefore I hate them."

do they charge exorbitant rates? or is it just that they fly red white and blue outside their establishment ? (honest question.)

what about Ghadaffi? (did i spell that right?)\r\n\r\nand now is it Syria that started sniping their own people the other day?\r\n\r\nI know Egypt was able to do something about it... \r\n\r\n[img]http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee368/Sonatavarius/Tank-Man.jpg?t=1305849986[/img]\r\n\r\n...but I'm not sure that here in the modern day everyone w/o a gov't class military would be so lucky.  \r\n\r\ni think it is somewhat similar to an animal being in a trap... said animal doesn't like you. it doesn't want you touching it. It'd rather bite your hand off then have you help it.  So then does that mean you leave the animal to maybe gnaw its own leg off and/or let whatever happens happens?  I've had quite a few family members go over there... all of them returned. but they returned afflicted.  Personally, I'd rather them not be over there.  I'd rather not have family get caught up in the crap over there... \r\n\r\nbut from what I've seen... you can't just go riding the fence.  or even just sitting around.  (or even just supply either/both side(s) w/ anything...and if you don't supply your "allies" they'll hate you too) last time we didn't do anything we had a harbor down in Hawaii bombed.  Either you can be proactive about something and lose people.... or ignore the problem till it musters up enough men/planning to fly jet liners into buildings.  I do see that the problem w/ stringing up and blowing off the most malevolent and seasoned heads of the hydra don't do anything more than just that... but it takes out the worst ones... where there's hate there will always be more heads to pop up.  ...and some if not all of those heads would've popped up anyway.  \r\n\r\nif any of what the media feeds us is true (highly likely its not) then Bin Laden was still planning on doing things to us as a country anyway. Instead of another terrorist attack that could've killed just as many as the last... he's dead. and if someone choreographs something then it won't be him. (if he's actually dead)\r\n\r\nwhy is it again that your relatives don't like us?\r\n\r\n\r\nthe people that aren't riding the success train generally don't like the ones that are.  its visible in a lot more than just international economics.  the American people don't even like American gas/oil companies... gas isn't cheap for us... if you've got a problem w/ someone...say big business... then you take it to  those businesses. The general populace has nothing to do with those businesses.  ...and I can't help it they were the smartest with their money and ended up on top of their industry.  I'm not saying I'm for it... but its like "oh... they were smarter than me and make a higher profit... and stick their noses in all kinds of different affairs that make sure they make a profit... therefore I hate them."  \r\n\r\ndo they charge exorbitant rates? or is it just that they fly red white and blue outside their establishment ? (honest question.)

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wowzies

13 posts

Nomad

Posted May 20, '11 1:01am UTC

Selling arms in this case would not be the smartest thing...

That would be like getting jumped in an alley by a guy with a knife and afterwards you offer him a gun.

We are out there because they attacked a few people, then they attacked us, then they attacked another person, then another, then another, and another. One thing I hope I get to do in the Navy next year is be that guy who repaired the jet that killed whom ever was a head hancho now that Osama is dead.

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CourtJester

6,158 posts

Peasant

Posted May 20, '11 5:58pm UTC

Considering Iraq's history

Do you realize that this country's borders were drawn up by the French/English/USA after WW1? Iraq (the country) really doesn't have a long history except that it was part of Persia - then the history lesson begins. Conveniently, when they drew up the borders, they made sure that Kuwait (friendly government) was separated such that these governments could have easy access to oil.

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loloynage2

4,206 posts

Peasant

Posted May 20, '11 7:41pm UTC

Come on guys, let's all admit it. Americans(as in U.S and Canada) love war. Don't we? Peace is wayyyy too boring. We need to **** some country for our entertainment. And to show the rest of the world not to mess with us.

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