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camm95
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camm95
52 posts
Nomad

Hopefully you have all heard of the wager. It states that if the belief in the existance of God was a bet, a rational person would choose to bet on the existance of God and therefore be some sort of Theist. The wager was modeled off of Christianity, and the claim that Pascal makes is that by believing in God, an individual has nothing to lose in their own lives, and if God does exist one has everything to gain in the afterlife. I am specifically wondering what you guys think of that claim. By being a theist there is nothing to lose in this life, and everything to gain in the next. So what do you guys think?

Please entertain the thought of an afterlife and don't claim that this entire thought is crap because there is no afterlife.

Also, if you believe there are things to lose or gain in this life, please elaborate as to what they are and why.

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HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

This is probably one of my favorite logical arguments about a higher being.

Em...
logical argument

...what?

Yikes, I better erect my multi godded shrine quick and face north while chanting "come o ye faithful while rubbing my tummy and patting my belly at the same time.

Pantheism? Or own new religion? Pantheism might be a bit hard to follow, if not completely impossible considering the jealousy and ego of most deities the myths tell about..^^
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

...what?


It is a logical argument but it ignores key points that causes it to fall apart.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Well, sure it uses logical arguments, and I admit the idea is at least interesting; but it completely fails due to the reason you state.

AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Pantheism? Or own new religion?


Hmm... hadnt really decided.

I think I will worship my breakfast in the morning, then eat it as part of a ritual sacrifice, then cause a great flood by washing down a nice cup of tea. Surely the gods (whichever of them is watching me worship my toast) would see my logic and allow me to live, uh, die and go to heaven. I would even offer them a cuppa as well.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

I think I will worship my breakfast in the morning, then eat it as part of a ritual sacrifice, then cause a great flood by washing down a nice cup of tea.


Don't forget your breakfasts resurrection in it's new form after going through the underworld later on.
redbedhead
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redbedhead
341 posts
Nomad

Considering mere probability still doesn't change the affect of the impact that will incur.

Let's say your in a room and there is a bomb that is about to detonate in a set amount of time. You can't leave the room and there are several wires connected to the bomb. Some wires you can rule out just by the look of them (the ones linked to the timer for instance) others look very similar to each other. You have a pair of pliers and you can only snip one wire before it blows, unless of course you choose the correct wire and disarm the bomb.

The room you can't escape is time, the bomb is the fact that an afterlife will hold a Hell of some form. The different wires are different religions and the pliers are symbolic of your choice. Deciding not to abide by the law simply because there is "too much probability" is like saying... "Hmm, there's too many choices to pick with this bomb, I'll just let it blow up and kill me and just not deal with it simply because I refuse to even try!"

Pretty idiotic (especially when everyone knows that you have to cut the red wire!)

314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Considering mere probability still doesn't change the affect of the impact that will incur.

Let's say your in a room and there is a bomb that is about to detonate in a set amount of time. You can't leave the room and there are several wires connected to the bomb. Some wires you can rule out just by the look of them (the ones linked to the timer for instance) others look very similar to each other. You have a pair of pliers and you can only snip one wire before it blows, unless of course you choose the correct wire and disarm the bomb.

The room you can't escape is time, the bomb is the fact that an afterlife will hold a Hell of some form. The different wires are different religions and the pliers are symbolic of your choice. Deciding not to abide by the law simply because there is "too much probability" is like saying... "Hmm, there's too many choices to pick with this bomb, I'll just let it blow up and kill me and just not deal with it simply because I refuse to even try!"

Pretty idiotic (especially when everyone knows that you have to cut the red wire!)


You forgot the fact that this isn't in fact a bomb, but a bunch of wires attached to an unlabeled box. There are millions of people telling you which wire to cut, everyone telling you something different. However, no one can actually tell you what is in the box. You have tested the box, and found it to be empty. Why would you cut a wire?

And besides that, what if the bomb would never go off and that cutting the wire would be the only thing setting it off? That is a possibility, when we are pretending that everything has a chance of actually happening. For example, I am about to make up a giant teddybear god that will devour anyone who believes in any deity. So if you believe in a god, he will torture you in his stomach forever. Do you want to risk it?
redbedhead
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redbedhead
341 posts
Nomad

You forgot the fact that this isn't in fact a bomb, but a bunch of wires attached to an unlabeled box. There are millions of people telling you which wire to cut, everyone telling you something different. However, no one can actually tell you what is in the box. You have tested the box, and found it to be empty. Why would you cut a wire?

Sorry but changing the scenario doesn't prove a point whatsoever. Besides you will be trapped inside the room forever regardless. Make your own life a living hell. The choice is yours, your inside the room alone, the fact is it really IS a bomb and no one can make the decision for you. If you decide not to choose it will literally be the death of you.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Sorry but changing the scenario doesn't prove a point whatsoever. Besides you will be trapped inside the room forever regardless. Make your own life a living hell. The choice is yours, your inside the room alone, the fact is it really IS a bomb and no one can make the decision for you. If you decide not to choose it will literally be the death of you.


But if you decide TO choose, not only would you have a life full of ignorance and suffering without the benefits of science, just stewing in your own ignorance, while the rest of the world laughs at you.

And then when you die, you have to face the bear, a fate worse than death. http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflegends/images/c/cd/TibbersSquare.png
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

logical argument

...what?
that. So far none of you had provided a disproval of this, that I could not rebuke.
It is a logical argument but it ignores key points that causes it to fall apart.
Should I remind you that your attempt at disproving this has a false standpoint?
Pantheism? Or own new religion? Pantheism might be a bit hard to follow, if not completely impossible considering the jealousy and ego of most deities the myths tell about..^^
Well, any new religion is false by default. Hum.
The room you can't escape is time, the bomb is the fact that an afterlife will hold a Hell of some form.
Hmm, a nice analogy, though if you will do nothing as atheists advocate, you are surefire bound in such a hell. In terms of Pascal's wager, there is only ONE wire which you can cut. And, Pascal's wager advocates that if you will do this, the room will open for you to leave. But the main trick here, is that "afterlife will hold Hell" is wrong in part of "will". Cutting any wire can make this bomb to alter its insides, which can't happen in mundane. Also, a success in cutting any wire will set the bomb off at once, as the request of belief is for one's entire life. So you either use your pliers to cut the wire or not.
Deciding not to abide by the law simply because there is "too much probability" is like saying... "Hmm, there's too many choices to pick with this bomb, I'll just let it blow up and kill me and just not deal with it simply because I refuse to even try!"

Pretty idiotic (especially when everyone knows that you have to cut the red wire!)
Yep, cut the red wire But indeed, waiting for death doing nothing is idiotic in terms of afterlife.
You have tested the box, and found it to be empty.
What? You have entered the afterlife and came back from there? ORLY?
And besides that, what if the bomb would never go off and that cutting the wire would be the only thing setting it off?
A what-if-false, because the bomb's explosion is an equivalent of death, therefore it will eventually happen. Cutting any wire will indeed set it off IMO, because this is an equivalent of following the selected religion up to one's death.
For example, I am about to make up a giant teddybear god that will devour anyone who believes in any deity.
Any new religion is false by default. You make a god, you fail to make it a god.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Any new religion is false by default. You make a god, you fail to make it a god.


How is any new religion by default false?

I was told by god in a dream last night that long ago he tried to convey his true will to man, but man misunderstood. So now he's making sure this time that we get it right. Explain how you could disprove this.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Should I remind you that your attempt at disproving this has a false standpoint?


No it's not a false stand point, that's only you.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Easily.

From Christian standpoint: God granted us His Son, and said no other revelations will be made, since God already said everything in His Word.

From any other religious standpoint: God is infinitely grater than human, so human cannot receive full set of God's will.

From atheistic standpoint: You contradict me, and I can say the same, therefore you are wrong.

vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

No it's not a false stand point, that's only you.
A "NO U" answer means you have no other valid standpoints. Flushed down the drain.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

From Christian standpoint: God granted us His Son, and said no other revelations will be made, since God already said everything in His Word.


But as stated in said dream, humanity misunderstood the first time, so this is wrong. How can you proove I did not have this dream? How can you proove it is wrong, when said dream is saying you're wrong first?
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