Forums → News and Feedback → No more Armor Points.
| 229 | 69591 |
Hi everyone, I have more news to share about points and ranking on AG3, and wanted to lump in ranking and leaderboard discussions here as well.
The previous topic was here:
http://armorgames.com/community/thread/6441505/ideas-and-discussions-about-migrating-armor-points-to-agv3
---
I hope you're sitting down ...
---
For the "TL;DR" people among you: everyone will essentially have their Armor Points reset to zero. AG3 will likely not migrate any points from AG2 with our current setup and direction.
Unless something drastic happens, or there's enough people who vocalize their unhappiness about this to Dan, this is how AG3 will start out.
After our meeting about Achievements yesterday, I was brought in the loop on how "oints" will work on AG3.
In a nutshell...
AG3 "Armor Points" as a sum total will calculate your "AG Score". We will still refer to them as "oints", but the site will show them as your "score".
AG3 points will be awarded primarily through the winning of game-related Achievements, and each achievement will have different amounts of points attached (easier achievements will give fewer points, for example).
The achievements we award for AG2 legacy features (previous rank, forum post count, etc) will not award AG3 points.
I do NOT believe we will award points for rating games, or if we do, it will be a minimal amount like the 2 points we give you now. If this is the case, we WILL migrate some points.
The examples Larry gave yesterday about Achievements showed some being worth as many as 15 or 30 points EACH.
---
I will re-open this topic when I have more information to answer questions.
- 229 Replies
i like the medieval theme and i hope they don't change it but they should add more ranks to make it more fun for everyone.
Me and some people were talking to Firetail a few days ago.
Firetail asked if the AP we have now will transfer to AG3. Will that happen?
Firetail asked if the AP we have now will transfer to AG3. Will that happen?
Your current AP will be reset because they are changing the armor points system.
- ideas about where you want us to show your AG Score (the total of your points)
I think there should be both a rank and a score, like for example, the picture of the king and 1000 written next to it.
Sorry if this idea has already been posted
Keep everything the same and add something for getting a new rank. For instance, when you become a wood squire, you get a bonus or something. I don't know, but you should know what I am getting at.Please don't take off rating games to get points. Getting points is slow enough...
For instance, when you become a wood squire, you get a bonus or something.
As in, a point bonus? No, that would be fairly useless. The purpose of counting the points in the first place is to basically measure which parts of the site you spend the most time in. The badges are just there to make it more interesting; it isn't like you've really "achieved" anything by reaching gold king, it's just a measure of basic site involvement.
Adding random bonuses would just mess up the system. You're already awarded points for the most basic things already. Why would they ever award you points just for gaining points?
Please don't take off rating games to get points. Getting points is slow enough...
How about you ignore how many points you have for the moment and try to focus more on involving yourself in the community and finding ways to improve it? That's the greatest reward of all.
I like the current rank system, it's original and....quirky...?
I think there should be some kind of rank progress bar on the profile pages, too.
Anyway, concerning the leaderboard system, I think there should be some kind of tab system on the "Communuty" page, i.e a tab for Forums, a tab for Leaderboards etc.
^ I couldn't agree more.
Why can't the AG overlords just leave well enough alone? The current rank/point system works fine, and while some people might not care for it a lot of us actually like it the way it is. They're not going to please everyone with any given system, but what they will do if they implement this new mess is make a lot more people than not upset. Why ruin a good system in the name of "rogress?" That's progressing backwards, not forwards.
The current system is flawed. It can be abused easily and doesn't involve gaming. ArmorGames is a flash gaming site first, and forums second. This is also a new site, so why not fix and update everything for the better. Yes, the better. They aren't going backwards with anything. Achievements in games for armor points and a reputation system for community involvement is improving it. Engaging both parts of the site and offering a challenge.
Actually look at the current system: Anyone can rate and comment on all the games and get around 11-12k armor points. You also have people who use the comments as a chat system and are iron and gold kings. That's against the rules, but it doesn't look like it's being enforced.
- Our user-to-user profile messenger is not a 'chat' system. Anything more than a few messages per day between two users could be considered spam, and deleted by moderators. If you want to have lengthy conversations with users, please use an instant message (IM) service.
They are making it overall better. The only people that are going to be upset are the ones that spend all their time trying to gain armor points or the ones who pride themselves on it. It's not important at all. It's just an insignificant number you accumulated by being active, nothing more.
As for the ranks, they're just adding more of them. More ranks in between and ahead of the current ones so you require more armor points to reach top rank. Top rank shouldn't be able to be achieved in a matter of a few months.
Anyone can rate and comment on all the games and get around 11-12k armor points
You do realize that it would take an incredible amount of time to go through and rate EVERY game here, and therefore is somewhat unlikely? I went through and rated all the games I had played here before making my account, which numerically is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of games present, and that took me a couple of weeks to complete. Some people may indeed go and rate every game here, but I think that unless they're planning to literally camp in front of the computer non-stop for a month or more they'll either tire of it part-way through or else take so long that the points they get will be spread out enough to mix in with their points from other activities (like posting in the forums) and be more of a "legitimate" rank.
ArmorGames is a flash gaming site first, and forums second.
This may be how it was initially designed, but based on the level of activity in the forums and some comments read therein, it would seem that the forums have become the crown jewel of the site.
Achievements in games
I posted a comment in favor of this in the appropriate thread, but I'll rehash the main points (no pun intended) of it here:
Achievements in games would be a good thing, but they should be in addition to and not instead of the current system. Adding them to the points display in the profiles in the same style as the Merits would be ideal. And I would actually like to see some in-site achievements for games like Raze 1 and 2 and Strike Force Heroes.
(See? We don't disagree about everything here.)
You also have people who use the comments as a chat system and are iron and gold kings. That's against the rules, but it doesn't look like it's being enforced.
P1: lolwut?!
P2: noway!
P1: yah, totally!
^ That's chatting. That's against the rules. That kind of behavior gets BanHAmmered in short order. When that kind of behavior gets BanHammered, people lose the points they've gotten from it, or their account outright. And when that happens, they don't become Iron or Gold Kings - they become anathema.
What I see in the forums, and what I suspect is what you are referring to as chatting, is people carrying on conversations. So long as they follow the rules, like "no flaming," "seven-word minimum," "no necros," et cetera, this is permissible behavior and in part the reason for the forum's existence. And more often, what I see in the forums is people having debates and discussions, stacking Walls Of Text like it was some intellectual game of Tetris and more than earning the one point that they get for each post. Your argument has some truth to it, but overall I think you're over-focusing on a small and oft-times quickly resolved problem.
The only people that are going to be upset are the ones that spend all their time trying to gain armor points or the ones who pride themselves on it.* It's not important at all. It's just an insignificant number you accumulated by being active, nothing more.
*And the ones who look at AG APs as a sort of barometer for how well others and themselves are doing on the site.
Take Ernie15 for instance. (And yes, I know he dislikes APs, but he's a good example.) A person can look at his AP level and say, "Wow, this guy's been here forever and a week. Since he's lasted that long as a respected member of the community, he might be worth paying more attention to and subsequently learning from that that guy over there who joined last week."
Additionally, and this is my personal opinion, having the APs is just nice. Sure, in the whole big picture of the world it may be an insignificant number accumulated by being active, but here it's a decent indicator of how far you've made it.
And another thing - APs can be regulated after a fashion. To borrow from your example above, someone can go around posting random chatty carp all over the place, but once all those spammish posts get deleted they lose the APs they got from it. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that people who have APs still have them because of the quality of their interactions in the site. However, with an "Activity Bar," that same carp thrower will be listed as being quite active, but there's no quality or usefulness to his activity - it's all trash. But you won't be able to know that until it's too late.
_____
No system is perfect. That's a given. But in my opinion, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, what we have now is better than what's about to be ruthlessly foisted upon us.
You do realize that it would take an incredible amount of time to go through and rate EVERY game here, and therefore is somewhat unlikely?
Look at the top 100 and the monthly leaderboard. You have plenty of people who have rated all the games in a week or month. It's very likely. I'm sure you could rate all the games in a week by devoting an hour of two of your time. It's a tedious activity, but it's likely to happen, as seen by their join dates and how many games they have rated.
This may be how it was initially designed, but based on the level of activity in the forums and some comments read therein, it would seem that the forums have become the crown jewel of the site.
There are less than thirty forumers, and only a fraction of that actively post. The site wouldn't be here if it relied on those people. Their number one source of income are games and the people that play them. The forums aren't anything near a crown jewel, more like an alley dumpster. They are extremely outdated and receive little attention. ArmorGames wouldn't lose a significant amount of money if they decided to delete the forums.
P1: lolwut?!
P2: noway!
P1: yah, totally!
^ That's chatting.
A form. Another is the pointless "how are you" "what's up" etc. conversations. I've read a lot of conversations on this site. Most of the comments in a conversation like that are only a few words long. Go through the top 100, look at the people who have tons of comments, then look at their conversations. That's the chatting I'm talking about. The people that usually make fifty comments a day asking generic questions. That's the kind of chatting that the rule is talking about. It even says more than a few messages between users a day can be considered spam. It says if you want to carry long conversations use a chat service.
My point about this is that points can be abused through chat-spam and nobody cares about that, even though it's stated in the rules. Changing from this very flawed system will be better. The only way achievements will be abused is if people hack, and that is unlikely. A lot of people here don't possess the knowledge for that and I'm sure they'll have security.
Since he's lasted that long as a respected member of the community, he might be worth paying more attention to and subsequently learning from that that guy over there who joined last week.
Respect isn't earned from the amount of AP you have.
but here it's a decent indicator of how far you've made it.
It's an indicator of how active you've been. Nothing more. There are users with 4k AP that have been here for four years, there are users with 15k+ AP that have been here for a few months, etc.
what we have now is better
How?
I'm sure you could rate all the games in a week by devoting an hour of two of your time.
Actually, I'm on an average of twice that daily. And it still took me that long.
top 100
#1: Firetail_Madness
Joined January 2008
55,729 AP
912 games rated (1,824 AP from games rated)
#2: Ernie15
Joined November 2008
45,807 AP
1,111 games rated (2,222 AP from games rated)
et cetera.
You were saying?
There are less than thirty forumers, and only a fraction of that actively post.
Can you back this up? It certainly seems that there are more names than that posting. And I'm not referring to the dumpy stuff, I mean the good threads.
more like an alley dumpster.
WERP, AWP and Cen's famous Tavern thread are dumpster scum. Got it.
Now really, I think you're seriously undercutting the forums here. Sure, there's a certain amount of carp present, but the Mods do a good job of catching and frying it so the rest of us can feast on the intelligent (or at least non-stupid) goodness that is more abundant.
Their number one source of income are games and the people that play them.
ArmorGames wouldn't lose a significant amount of money if they decided to delete the forums.
How is it that they're making money? I don't recall having to fork over money to sign up or pay a forum toll to post. And the few games that have "ay-to-get-bonus-stuff" material send their profits to the games' creator. The forums have no affect on AG finances.
That's chatting.
A form. Another is the pointless "how are you" "what's up" etc. conversations. I've read a lot of conversations on this site. Most of the comments in a conversation like that are only a few words long. That's the chatting I'm talking about. The people that usually make fifty comments a day asking generic questions. That's the kind of chatting that the rule is talking about. It even says more than a few messages between users a day can be considered spam. It says if you want to carry long conversations use a chat service.
And that's also the stuff that gets *ahem* dealt with. Most of the generic type stuff in the Tavern for example has been and is being removed, and the bulk of the "question threads" that remain are things with some meat on their bones, like "Your Most Painful Physical Experience" for example.
And I'm inclined to doubt that the "more than a few" messages we've exchanged in our three-thread duel/debate will be marked as spammish.
I don't think you're giving the forums and the Mods who patrol them enough credit here. However, this is starting to go off-topic.
My point about this is that points can be abused through chat-spam and nobody cares about that, even though it's stated in the rules. Changing from this very flawed system will be better. The only way achievements will be abused is if people hack, and that is unlikely. A lot of people here don't possess the knowledge for that and I'm sure they'll have security.
And your point is taken, even if it is more than a little cynical. Any system can be abused. However, the Mods and other support staff do what the can to control and remove the spammish content that arises.
As to achievements, what makes you think people won't find a way to abuse them? At the rate that people are becoming more and more technologically saturated these days, there's probably quite a few people with the technical chops to hack in and make a mess. And someone will probably also find a way to cheat without hacking. No matter what system you use, sooner or later someone will find a way to abuse it. (Guess I'm the one being cynical now. But the fact remains that changing systems won't change that some people will always abuse it.)
Respect isn't earned from the amount of AP you have.
I'm not saying that it is. What I mean is that AP can act as a barometer for the length and quality of your tenure here and therefore can indicate who is worthy of being looked to for guidance on the site and credible,or at least well-put opinions in debate. Of course it's not foolproof, but it can help.
It's an indicator of how active you've been. Nothing more. There are users with 4k AP that have been here for four years, there are users with 15k+ AP that have been here for a few months, etc.
I've been here a year and I only have 3,250 and some change.
There are always the extremes of the issue; without that you'd have no middle ground.
A good case for the point I'm making here and above would be who I sought out for help earlier in my presence on AG. I looked for someone who had been here awhile, was frequently active in the forums, and had a good level of experience. I used the choices' levels of AP, juxtaposed against how often they cropped up in the forums, to help make those determinations, and I ended up going to Cenere for assistance. That turned out to be a good choice. My point is that AP can be more than a useless number.
what we have now is better
How?
I suppose that once boiled down to the basics, this is all highly subjective. However, I, and I'm sure many others, find that the current system is less complicated and more straightforward than the proposed replacement. With what we have now, you know that if you make a post, you get one point, if you rate a game, you get two points, and if your post was spam, you're going to lose that point sometime soon. It's more definite in its cause and effect that arbitrarily being awarded "karma" or whatever they're calling it now just for showing up and playing a game or two. Also, the AP system seems like it would be easier to use when meting out punishment. The offender, let's say a spammer, loses APs for his spammish posts. It's a very definite cause and effect, and it punishes based directly on the offense. How would that same situation be dealt with if everyone is being ranked based on how long their logged in? How do you meter "karma" equivalent to X number of spam posts or other offenses that fall short of a ban?
It just seems like the AGv3 replacement is more obfuscated and complicated than the current system, which despite any faults is still well-established and reasonably well-liked.
_____
I must say, Ghost, our three-thread debate has been most interesting, and your points have been well-played. The kind of discussion we've been having is the heart and soul of the forums.
Actually, I'm on an average of twice that daily.
I'm not saying actually playing the games. Just rating.
You were saying?
Keep going through that list, and the MONTHLY leaderboard. I'm not going to name names as that's bad conduct, but you'll see them.
Can you back this up?
Forumers, as in the regulars. Yes, you have a bunch of newbies that come around and post occasionally, I'm not counting those. Even if I did it still wouldn't make a significant impact.
WERP, AWP and Cen's famous Tavern thread are dumpster scum.
I was speaking in general. There are some jewels out there, but that doesn't mean the whole place is like that. I was also speaking about how the forum is set up, not the threads. We have several glitches that make using this forum a pain in the butt, and we are missing several necessary features all modern forums have.
How is it that they're making money?
From the ones who don't use an adblocker. You're clicking around the site and seeing ads, and that's how AG makes some money; ad revenue.
And that's also the stuff that gets *ahem* dealt with.
I'm not talking about the forum, I'm talking about comments on user pages. You have people here who have thousands of comments and they got those by using AG as a chat service, which is against a rule. Those don't get dealt with. Just look through the top 100 and you'll see a lot of people with over 4k comments. Some of them probably don't use this as a chat service and actually comment a few times a day on games or responding to messages, but most of them use AG as a chat service. There's no doubt the people with over 6k do.
As to achievements, what makes you think people won't find a way to abuse them?
They will, but it will be less than what it is now. I'm speaking from experience on Kongregate, a site with achievements and a way larger user base. Sure they get people hacking, but they have things in place to spot them, then effectively deal with them.
sooner or later someone will find a way to abuse it.
Of course, nothing they can come up with is foolproof, but they can make it more difficult and actually challenge users to gain armor points. Actually playing games and progressing to get points, instead of the easy and mundane rating, commenting, and posting, which take little effort.
My point is that AP can be more than a useless number.
A rare sight. The people who only care about gaining armor points overshadows that.
if you make a post, you get one point, if you rate a game, you get two points, and if your post was spam, you're going to lose that point sometime soon.
And you'll get points in AG3 for posting, just a different version of it. How ratings work now is pathetic. You can rate as many games as you like without even playing them. If they decide to keep points for rating, they should limit how many you can rate a day--I'd say 50--and make sure you are on the page for a few minutes. This will hinder those that just rate for points, and take more time out of their day.
being awarded "karma" or whatever they're calling it now just for showing up and playing a game or two.
It's called reputation and that's not what it's going to be. It's going to be an up/down vote system similar to Imgur. Comparing it to Imgur because they have ranks, but if you've never browsed there then it'll be similar to YouTube. Just without the ranks. When you make a post or comment, people will have the ability to either upvote or downvote it.
I understand the cons of this system, but if they restrict how much you can up/down vote a day and a notification system that tells them when there's a suspicious amount of up/down votes, this will work fine.
Achievements will be the new armor points. Not to be confused with reputation, reputation is something new. You'll earn achievements from games; check Kongregate for example.
If you're worried about punishment stuff, I read a post from Cormyn in the reputation thread that being warned or banned will affect it in some way. However since we haven't had any admin participation here in about a year, that may not still be planned.
I Think Keeping The Rating System (serf, knight, prince, king, etc) is Good Because It Shows How A Player Likes Communicating. Thanks
You must be logged in to post a reply!