NOTE: This is not an anti religion post, simply a philosophical and age old debate.
Ok, so very very basically, here is an issue with the typical Christian view of God, a view shared by other religions, aside, however.
God is all good God is all powerful (omnipotent) God is all knowing
If God is all good, then why does he make evil things happen? Why does he create murderers and tsunamis?
Some say God creates us with the choice to do good and bad that we may have free will.
So, in this case God creates us without knowing if we'll choose to be good or bad people, or even if we will believe in him/her.
So God doesn't know if we're going to be good or bad, so God is not all knowing.
BUT - Imagine we still want to hold that he his all knowing, i.e he knows everything about everything. This means God creates us knowing that we're going to be good or bad people, this means that he condemns those he creates bad to a life of sin and ultimately hell, so he can't be all Good.
BUT - if we want to still hold that he is all good, then there must be another reason murderers and tsunamis exist, but what? Maybe God created the world, and is not powerful enough to intervene. Then God is no longer all-powerful. Either that or he is powerful enough to intervene, and simply doesn't want to, in which case he is not all good. What do you think about all this?
Urghhh...has no one read my comment on the first page about Good and Bad being just perceptions? Furthermore, even if such a God exists, who are we mortals to judge for Him what IS good or bad?
I read it, and you're right, what's good to one person might be bad to another and vice versa. So there really is no definite good or bad.
If we were perfect, we would not lose that limb in the first place. ^^
Tree fell on your leg, you weren't expecting it to happen, leg became infected.
Then we rule out the sort of God we are suppose to be debating about in the first place.
Whoops, I find it a bit hard to be devil's advocate here, thanks for catching that.
The choice would still be available even if not taken. If someone couldn't personally find it in them to say kill another person and was faced with the option to kill or not and doesn't, does this mean they have no free choice in this matter or does it mean they made the choice not to kill?
I think it means that they are not mentaly capable of doing it, that choice of killing someone just can't be taken. Like you can't walk through walls, your mind just can't make out that you could walk through walls, it just sounds so absurd that that isn't even a choice for you, same goes for killing someone.
Evolution works through naturalistic processes. Just as we rule out God creating storms we can just as easily do this with evolution.
Why do you rule out that god made storms? He has to constantly balence this ecosystem and what if making storms is one way to do it, so people losing homes is minescule to having a national famine.
Which means that everything that occurs has done so according to His designs. Hence they had NO free will at all because He knows what is going to happen. Does that clear Kasic's point up?
Well yes, that is another fallacy with the All P/K/L. If God knows what's going to happen, it has to be that way otherwise God is not Omniscient. Which would mean we wouldn't really have free will, just the illusion of it. But this isn't what I was trying to get at, see my last post.
He put the tree there so they HAD the option to go off the good path. And if he stopped them, he would be taking away their free will.
Wait.... I just relized why is free will a part of this? Why does people having free will matter if god is good or not? It is our persoanl preference to have free will, but would god be considered bad if he never gave us free will in the first place? So it could be that in order for god to be all the things he would give us no free choice, which would then mean that us debating is all part of his master plan somehow.
How does knowing something will happen take away free will. It will happen that way, but he doesn't nessicarily make it that way. I could know that my friend was walking home, but it doesn't mean I was making him do so.
Well yes, that is another fallacy with the All P/K/L. If God knows what's going to happen, it has to be that way otherwise God is not Omniscient. Which would mean we wouldn't really have free will, just the illusion of it. But this isn't what I was trying to get at, see my last post.
Haha, mea culpa for misinterpreting then. But point still stands.
Why do you rule out that god made storms? He has to constantly balence this ecosystem and what if making storms is one way to do it, so people losing homes is minescule to having a national famine.
Why does God have to balance ecosystems? If He wanted to prevent a famine why then is he not creating storms in Somalia, Kenya, Ethiopia, countries suffering from drought now?
I could know that my friend was walking home, but it doesn't mean I was making him do so.
Yes, you may know that, but do you know exactly where each foot is going to be placed for each step? Whether or not he will trip? Who he will meet walking and if they will talk or not? Because that's what Omniscience means, knowing EVERYTHING.
How does knowing something will happen take away free will. It will happen that way, but he doesn't nessicarily make it that way. I could know that my friend was walking home, but it doesn't mean I was making him do so.
Because he wants everything to be good so he has to be the mistro in the orcesta, commanding everything and everyone.
Why does God have to balance ecosystems? If He wanted to prevent a famine why then is he not creating storms in Somalia, Kenya, Ethiopia, countries suffering from drought now?
Because... if you can remember, god is said to like people believeing him with not a scratch of evidence other than that whole christ buisness, and I think eventualy someone might catch on that something is rigged here.
Wait.... I just relized why is free will a part of this? Why does people having free will matter if god is good or not? It is our persoanl preference to have free will, but would god be considered bad if he never gave us free will in the first place? So it could be that in order for god to be all the things he would give us no free choice, which would then mean that us debating is all part of his master plan somehow.
How about reading the OP's post again? Or I'll condense it here.
Basically if we have free will, we can commit all sorts of sin or choose to be good. We have a choice. Which brings up the question, why does He give us free will if He knows we will stray to the Dark Side? It then brings up the question of Him being all knowing and wanting all of us to go to Heaven. If He knows what will happen to us, he has already sorted out people into Heaven and Hell before they were born.
Which lead to my point that there is no good or bad in this world, and even if there is, it would be hard to perceive what is good or bad for Him.
How does knowing something will happen take away free will. It will happen that way, but he doesn't nessicarily make it that way. I could know that my friend was walking home, but it doesn't mean I was making him do so.
Because Christianity espouses the idea of a Divine Plan. He does not just know, He planned what will happen. Clarified?
Yes, you may know that, but do you know exactly where each foot is going to be placed for each step? Whether or not he will trip? Who he will meet walking and if they will talk or not? Because that's what Omniscience means, knowing EVERYTHING.
I don't see what difference that amounts to. If you know something, and that gives you no control, then knowing everything should still amount to no control.
Basically if we have free will, we can commit all sorts of sin or choose to be good. We have a choice. Which brings up the question, why does He give us free will if He knows we will stray to the Dark Side? It then brings up the question of Him being all knowing and wanting all of us to go to Heaven. If He knows what will happen to us, he has already sorted out people into Heaven and Hell before they were born.
Ok... how bout this? There is no bad side, only a good side because god has just been basicly using us like puppets, every murder and stuff, is his weird interpretation of good. I think there is no way to win this...
Actually no. Infinity times zero is NOT zero. I just had to get pedantic with this one.
I don't see what difference that amounts to. If you know something, and that gives you no control, then knowing everything should still amount to no control.
This conversation is pointless. Has anyone else worked out that every idea we have has a counter? There is a way to disprove everything that has been said and then something else to counter that disproof. Like Somewhat said, there is no way to win this argument.
Ok... how bout this? There is no bad side, only a good side because god has just been basicly using us like puppets, every murder and stuff, is his weird interpretation of good. I think there is no way to win this...
Again, we have no idea what is Good Or Bad. And if there is a Good side, there will be a Bad side. Why? Because:
Good and evil is a judgment. To consider something better than or worse than is a judgment. Evil is something of inferior quality compared to something better, therefore a lesser good is considered evil when compared with a greater good. When there is no judgment, there is no consideration of something being better or worse than another. Everything is accepted equally as it is. Judgment creates separation of one thing with another whereas non judgment sees the oneness and equality of all things.
(Link to para on my first comment)
Either we accept that if there is Good there is certainly a Bad or we hold that it is just a neutral Thing.
