ForumsWEPRIs capitalism wrong?

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BritHennerz
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BritHennerz
408 posts
Farmer

Shouldn't we all work together to get through this recession?

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Capitalism is defined as '' the economic system where the means of production are privately owned, operated for profit from investment, and in competitive markets.'' (Wiki)

Which is perfectly healthy.

Why would it even clash with helping each other working through a recession? I see no reason why it does.

BritHennerz
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BritHennerz
408 posts
Farmer

It's a dog eat dog world out there mate.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

It's a dog eat dog world out there mate.


Yes....so? Does that mean that Capitalism is fundamentally evil? Does it mean that people don't help each other? Capitalism is not perfect, but the other major economic systems have proven non-viable.
pruimenmoes
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pruimenmoes
35 posts
Nomad

in some things it is fair everybody gets just as much money
on the other side:if smart people get just as much as his dumb neighbor
then nobody want's to have a hard job but just the easiest one
that wil mean no:teachers,scientist,doctors,or good company's
so everyone wil be stupid means by,by,WORLD

my opinion is capitalism is wrong.

Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

in some things it is fair everybody gets just as much money
on the other side:if smart people get just as much as his dumb neighbor
then nobody want's to have a hard job but just the easiest one
that wil mean no:teachers,scientist,doctors,or good company's
so everyone wil be stupid means by,by,WORLD
my opinion is capitalism is wrong.


so...you talk about how bad communism is, then you say capitalism is wrong? where is the logic behind that?

capitalism is currently the only way to keep our economy in good shape. if the economy is controled by the goverment, then there is no way for the economy to grow.
sensanaty
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sensanaty
1,094 posts
Nomad

my opinion is capitalism is wrong.


Well then, what would you choose? Fascism we all know is a uber fail, Anarchy is just a VERY bad idea, communism didn't work out all that good. You may think it's not fair for person X to own more than person Y, but for starters,think about Inflation. If both X and Y earned the same amount, and so did a lot of other X's and Y's money will become worthless.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

in some things it is fair everybody gets just as much money


....And where did you pluck this absurd ''axiom'' from?

so...you talk about how bad communism is, then you say capitalism is wrong? where is the logic behind that?


The two aren't absolutes and aren't the only systems around. China to a certain extent has a hybrid.

Fascism we all know is a uber fail,


I detest it when people bandy around terms without knowing what it means fully. Fascism has never had a serious academic group of scholars to clarify it; Indeed all the strains of ''Fascism'' we had have widely differing characteristics, Eg. Hitler tried to supplant whatever religions available with his own Pagan-Neo-Nazi religion; Whilst the Croats and Italians fully supported Roman Catholicism.

Indeed the most general economic system of Fascism we have is that it is a ''Third Way'' a hybrid of Capitalism and Communism.


communism didn't work out all that good


Communism in theory is a perfect solution, the major problems that arise are from human nature; the world Marx envisioned is an idealistic one without such evil natures around, in theory it works. Also, what people THINK is Communism, whatever ''Communist'' state that emerged in the past century, can never be considered a true Marxist concept and product because all of them failed to develop according to the theory. For one, a true Communist state is a government-less one.

Now we have that clarified, let's move on.

You may think it's not fair for person X to own more than person Y, but for starters,think about Inflation. If both X and Y earned the same amount, and so did a lot of other X's and Y's money will become worthless.


The whole question of fairness is partially unsound. You can't blame the person who worked hard at school and ended up on top in an ivory tower compared to a lazy bummer who dropped out.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Shouldn't we all work together to get through this recession?


People do work together under Capitalism, just not in the same sense in which you're thinking. The OP doesn't go into much detail, so I'm going to create a list of common arguments made against capitalism and explain how those arguments are flawed.

First, I'll start with your comment.

Shouldn't we all work together to get through this recession? or Why should markets thrive off competing with one another instead of working with one another?

In an idea world, people help each other out. When people are competing, they aren't helping each other, which is why competition merely holds society back. At least, that's the common logic people have.

We need:

* to not only look at competing businesses, but consumers as well.

* to clarify how competition benefits consumers.

* to clarify why lack of competition is dangerous.

Often, when people talk about how detrimental it is for businesses to compete with one another, they only think of the businesses involved with a certain good or service. The consumer is often forgotten. Many people feel that as one businesses profits, another businesses goes into debt, and they focus on how this is a bad thing. However, it's easy to forget that we must also consider the consumer.

You're probably thinking, "Okay, well, let's consider the consumer. Wouldn't the consumer still be better off if businesses worked together?" Competition happens because businesses want to make a profit. Businesses can only make a profit by selling goods that people want. When one business has more customers, often the other business has less. This means one business is going to find it harder to profit. This business must then figure out how they can persuade people to buy their product. They persuade others to buy their product by providing goods/services that are more desirable than their competition's goods/services.

There are a number of ways to make goods more desirable. One way is to provide cheaper goods. Another way is to provide better quality goods. The ultimate goal, however, is to come up with goods that are not only cheap, but also good quality.

Without competition, businesses can provide lower quality goods at higher prices. For example, when the iPhone first hit the market, there were few phones that were as good of quality as the iPhone. Because we live in a free market, other companies are providing goods of similar quality at cheaper prices. If there was no need for competition, there would be no incentive to create better goods. However, even if better goods were created, we must also remember that goods are in limit supply because resources are limited. I will talk more on limited resources later.

Under capitalism, businesses are forced to make a profit. If a business doesn't make a profit, then they go under. This means businesses will sell goods at a higher price than what it cost to create that good.

I suppose we should talk about price. To talk about price, we need to understand value and why different goods and services have different values.

Resources are limited. Because they are limited, they have different values. Rarer resources are often more expensive than common resources because everybody wants the rarer resource. We use prices as a way of allocating resources. If all resources had the same value, then everyone would buy the most rare of resources, which means people who create inferior products will likely waste those resources. Because prices are different, people can't buy rarer resources and waste them. They smut make sure they don't waste the resources. The people who do waste the resources don't make a profit, which means less resources are wasted.

For example, let' say I use a cheap metal to make disposable razors, while another makes more expensive razors with rarer metals. If all goods had the same value, I could take the rarer metals and make better quality disposable razors. The razors may last longer, but I'm only making disposable razors, which means they likely won't last as long as the quality razors made with the same metal. More people will be able to buy better quality disposable razors, but the rarer metal will be wasted. This will lower the supply of the rarer metal by such a great amount that eventually the businesses selling quality razors will have to use an inferior metal.

So how do we determine if a resource is being wasted or not? Supply and demand. If a company profits, the material is being used for goods that people ultimately want. If they aren't making a profit, they they are either making goods people want but can't afford,or they are making goods nobody wants. A product, in this case, is only wasted if is undesirable for one reason or another. The one thing capitalism can do that other -isms can't, is to allow CONSUMERS as a wrong to determine the value of a good/service. This is why you hear people, like myself, say, "People vote with their money." When it comes to allocating resources, money is how the people vote, which is more democratic than having the government decide the value of goods and services.

Why don't we let the government decide the value of resources? Because the government is made up of regular people, and they can make errors too. It's better to let people vote for how resources should be allocated buy buying products they want than it is to allow the government to determine the value of resources, and to allocate them in unfavorable and detrimental ways.

Profit is good because it is a sign of success. When one profits, we know they are providing goods and services people want. Without profit, there is no way to measure whether a good or service is serving the people at their fullest potential. Without profit, smaller businesses can waste rarer and more valuable materials, which would normally result in failure under a free market.

That is the importance of cost.

That's all I'll get into for now. Even those two statements resulted in more typing and more depth than what I originally imagined.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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Shepherd

Also, I don't understand why communism couldn't exist in a truly free market. If a community of people, communists, want to share a business, they can all own that business and run the business accordingly. Under a truly free market, people are free to run businesses how they want. The business may or may not stay afloat, but if communism is beneficial to society, then the business should be able to stay afloat in a free market, even if everyone working their owns that business. I believe a hardcore, anti-capitalist, anarcho-communist actually posted an example of a businesses that was run like that and I believe it was successful for quite some time.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Under capitalism, businesses are forced to make a profit. If a business doesn't make a profit, then they go under. This means businesses will sell goods at a higher price than what it cost to create that good.


Nemo made a few of the points I wanted to make, but just to add on. Firstly, what's the point of a business if you're not selling above the cost price? There's no incentive for me to start a roadside lemonade stall if I know I won't earn a few dollars. Businesses all run on profit earning, shops won't exist if that was not the case.

Now moving on, to the point about setting prices.
It really depends on the market structure. There are four market structures, Perfect Competition (PC), Monopolistic Competition (MC), Oligopolies and Monopolies.

PC is when there are hundreds of small firms all competeting. As you said, its a dog eat dog world for these firms. But that's the world, there will never be all winners, someone has to lose. Essentially, PC displays the following characteristics:

1. All firms sell an identical product.
2. All firms are price-takers.
3. All firms have a relatively small market share.
4. Buyers know the nature of the product being sold and the prices charged by each firm.
5. The industry is characterized by freedom of entry and exit.

Monopolistic competition is roughly the same thing, except there is product differentiation, meaning there can be mid range, low range, high range products.

In both cases, both market structures are price takers, they cannot easily change prices because of their small size and because they're products are roughly equal. Businesses will rarely raise prices because it'll drive consumers to their competitors.

Oligopolies and Monopolies on the other hand can set prices. Oligopolies are when there are a few large firms, this causes problems because they can band together to set prices. For example, airlines can come together and cheat on prices. Monopolies are the bigger worry, essentially they set the price since they are the only supplier. The good thing is that the government has bodies to regulate such unscrupulous behaviour.


Why don't we let the government decide the value of resources? Because the government is made up of regular people, and they can make errors too.


Essentially the age old economic problem of imperfect information.

It's better to let people vote for how resources should be allocated buy buying products they want than it is to allow the government to determine the value of resources, and to allocate them in unfavorable and detrimental ways.


Which is the magic of the free market forces in our world, a.k.a Adam Smith's Invisible Hand.


So what's the point of my whole post? The main point would be that humans are all economical agents; that is, fundamentally we are rational (hang on.....) and narrowly self-interested actors who have the ability to make judgments toward their subjectively defined ends.

Economics is not the study of money, it is the study of how we use our limited resources to satisfy our limited wants. Capitalism is just a manifestation of what we are.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

I believe a hardcore, anti-capitalist, anarcho-communist actually posted an example of a businesses that was run like that and I believe it was successful for quite some time.


Example please?
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

they can all own that business and run the business accordingly.


There would be no point of the business since all profit has to be distributed back to society will it not?

The business may or may not stay afloat, but if communism is beneficial to society, then the business should be able to stay afloat in a free market, even if everyone working their owns that business.


Hang on a second....Yes Communism might be beneficial but that doesn't mean it's a panacea to business running.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

If capitalism is left unchecked(without government interventions) that will b a disaster like (Hyper inflation)
So, it can b said pure Capitalism is not good.

NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Example please?


It's been over a year since I saw the article. The business was owned by all the workers. It was a hotel I believe. Sorry, that's the only example I know.

Hang on a second....Yes Communism might be beneficial but that doesn't mean it's a panacea to business running.


Honestly I don't think communism works in a free market. I was merely saying that people would be free to share a business in a truly free market if they wanted to. This is why I support a free market, because you aren't forced to run a business in a particular way.

If someone figures out how to make a certain system work in a free market that was previously thought to be impossible, then I'm all for it. However, I believe the only way we can find out is if we give people the freedom to attempt such systems.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

If capitalism is left unchecked(without government interventions) that will b a disaster like (Hyper inflation)
So, it can b said pure Capitalism is not good.


Sorry, but hyper inflation is not caused by the free market.
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