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nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

So, there have been scare reports in the Economist that the Euro might crash in a few weeks if a grand action plan ( unlimited liquidity for longer durations by the ECB), or if all euro-zone debt above 60% of each country's GDP is mutualised, setting aside a tranche of tax revenue to pay it off over the next 25 years (Germany's Council of Economic Experts' plan).

Is it worth it to save the Euro if even Spain and Italy are drowning in this muddy quagmire? And even if the deal works out, it most probably entails political pressure to change from Germany, which could infuriate people.

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partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

The crisis started in the USA. Then it spread to europe's richest countries first, because they were more financially active so they had more American debt and a bigger national debt too. Only when the crisis was already very serious it started to affect countries with lower financial activity.


actualy is this a different crisis then the one 2-3 year ago.
back then it was a bank crisis. during this time governments spended loads of money to bail out all kinds of companys and now they are in a new crisis where governments are more failing then the banks.

anyway the southern european countrys have been spending loads of money that they didn't had. it's not our problem that you guys ****ed up. why should we safe you from your own malfuctioning?

don't complaine and take the hits. it's not the 1st time a country go's bankrupt. for example argentina: they went bankrupt in 2000/1
they toke the hit and are now in the top 10 fastest growing economies in the world.
all this is not the end of the world. you just have to get past the hard time. life isn't always happieness.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

anyway the southern european countrys have been spending loads of money that they didn't had. it's not our problem that you guys ****ed up. why should we safe you from your own malfuctioning?

Well, in a way it is unfair to punish a whole country when only those who made decisions are responsible. Also, I don't really believe that what Germany and France did was actually helping them. They took their own advantage out of other's crisis, but now that they're in themselves, they wanna get the better part. Sure they're more stable than other countries, but hypocritics are hypocritics no matter what.

Also, look at who they pushed through as new leaders for the countries in debt: ex-people from Goldman Sachs, who already managed to f*ck up Greece once before. Don't they think at all?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

don't complaine and take the hits. it's not the 1st time a country go's bankrupt. for example argentina: they went bankrupt in 2000/1
they toke the hit and are now in the top 10 fastest growing economies in the world.
all this is not the end of the world. you just have to get past the hard time. life isn't always happieness.

Argentinia wasn't hindered to decide to go bankrupt; it wasn't pumped up with foreign money like Greece was. Yes, Argentinia took the hit, went bankrupt and through some very hard time, and now is going better. I still think Greece should have done the same, but the EU didn't want it to, and by that simply delayed it, probably. And now you want to punish Greece, although they didn't have so much to say?
gaboloth
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gaboloth
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Peasant

anyway the southern european countrys have been spending loads of money that they didn't had. it's not our problem that you guys ****ed up.

As I said before:

So, when Greece was finally allowed to join the group of the financiallly powerful countries, it started building up national debt, fueling the economy with fake money, that eventually caused it to collapse. Isn't that what the US and the other rich countries have been doing since 1980?

From Greece's side it was stupid to suffer and even lie to join the flawed debt economic system, but the rich countries are still responsible for creating the system in the first place.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

go's under.

[quote]I'm not sure whether it is because of worldwide financial crisis that it affecting them or if it is something else,


they prety much ****ed themself by spending to much money on social care. work only untill 54 and no longer then 30 hours a week was normale. but still they got about the same amount money as we get from average 42 hours a week and working till our 65.

and the (half) world financial crisis brought to the daylight that they are almost at their max debt. so instandly people wanted money from greece wich they don't have.

so it's both but mainly by themself. the wrld crisis only speeded it up. [/quote]

but the rich countries are still responsible for creating the system in the first place.


we never pushed any country to join our little group. it's your own country that wanted to join us. so don't cry.

It seems that only Germany is left standing, France is failing too.


finland, the netherlands, norway.

Considering that you have been gambling much more and for much longer than them and if you didn't lose all your money it's just because you had more to start with, that you're going lose all your money soon, especially if you let them fail, and that you're the one who created the gambling house, bailing them could actually be a good idea.


ow man, you gotta preform that on stage, it would make great stand up comedy.

herefore I think that the countries should revert back to their original currencies and the EU should dissolve itself.


i agree that the euro has to split. countrys that want to stick together can do so and the rest see for themself what they do.
but there is no need to dissolve the EU. the euro is just a small thing in the EU. they are doing much more then only that.
but if there are countrys that want to leave the EU then they should be free to do so.

Well, in a way it is unfair to punish a whole country when only those who made decisions are responsible


atleast they are part of that country, it's a democratic country so even the people voted for those people. we outside those countrys have nothing to do whit them and now they beg us for money and don't want to pay it back.
we worked hard for that money and they whit their easy lifes go cry when the fail. they had a awsome way of life for the last 50 year. wich they actualy couldn't get. and now that is over. we have to give away our hard worked money to them? **** that. they should start working for a change.

I don't really believe that what Germany and France did was actually helping them. They took their own advantage out of other's crisis, but now that they're in themselves, they wanna get the better part.


ofcours that is because germany and other northern countrys think ahead. what comes after the crisis. what happens if we do ....
and ofcours you take the option that is the best for yourself. that is how it always works. that is how people create money.

Also, look at who they pushed through as new leaders for the countries in debt: ex-people from Goldman Sachs, who already managed to f*ck up Greece once before. Don't they think at all?


the greek made their own government. sure other countrys told them who are good people to have at this time. but i'm 100% sure they did not puch pesific people in the government.
also am i sure that germany wouldn't push only people from the financial world in it. this will only give problems on other parts of the government.



(now i'm going to bed)
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

atleast they are part of that country, it's a democratic country so even the people voted for those people. we outside those countrys have nothing to do whit them and now they beg us for money and don't want to pay it back.

Did they beg for the money, or was the money shoved down their throat while being threatened to take measures, or else...

we worked hard for that money and they whit their easy lifes go cry when the fail. they had a awsome way of life for the last 50 year. wich they actualy couldn't get. and now that is over. we have to give away our hard worked money to them? **** that. they should start working for a change.

That sounds a bit exxagerated. Quite a bit actually. I doubt that all of Italy, Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland led a great life for 50y while the rest of the EU worked it's arse off. Maybe there where tendencies, but can you prove what you say there?

ofcours that is because germany and other northern countrys think ahead. what comes after the crisis. what happens if we do ....
and ofcours you take the option that is the best for yourself. that is how it always works. that is how people create money.

Which is perfectly understandable from a capitalistic point of view. But as I said, hypocritics are hypocritics no matter what... also I'm not too fond of capitalism.

the greek made their own government. sure other countrys told them who are good people to have at this time. but i'm 100% sure they did not puch pesific people in the government.

But they pushed Papandreu away which gave place to such idiots. He may not have been the fastest, but he seemed better than what they have now. Well, we'll see, anyway. Wait and see...

Anyway, I'm not saying the 'oor' countries are faultless; but the other countries aren't either, and during the crisis I lost some esteem I had for the EU and it's management.
gaboloth
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gaboloth
1,612 posts
Peasant

we worked hard for that money and they whit their easy lifes go cry when the fail. they had a awsome way of life for the last 50 year. wich they actualy couldn't get. and now that is over. we have to give away our hard worked money to them? **** that. they should start working for a change.

Are you really saying that the more poor is a country and the more national debt it has, the more easy its citizens' life is? That means life is easier in Zimbabwe than in Norway. Don't be stupid.
finland, the netherlands, norway.

Norway is not part of the EU. Again.



finland, the netherlands, norway.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

Did they beg for the money, or was the money shoved down their throat while being threatened to take measures, or else...


they asked, then we said oke we give money if ....., they disagree, why? we don't want to pay it back.

That sounds a bit exxagerated. Quite a bit actually. I doubt that all of Italy, Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland led a great life for 50y while the rest of the EU worked it's arse off. Maybe there where tendencies, but can you prove what you say there?

from greece i'm 100% sure. greece was all this time known in europe as "that relaxed country where people don't have to work hard." and we liked that, just as we like the greek. they are great people.
it's fact that they only had to work till their 54. no (most) greek wont deny this either. also it's fact that part-time jobs and 30 hours job are most populair in greece for many many years. i think no (most) greek wont deny this either. meanwhile they could afford the same luxery as we all had.

(why 30 hours?) well it's a full time job only their "siesta" or something alike takes up 2 hours a day, 10 hours a week, 510 hours a year. wich they simply don't work. and not make any money.

in spain and portugal they also do this "siesta" thing (dunno about pension age)

and i gotta agree that i dunno about italy. but they are in the middle of it. and their last &quotresident" wasn't realy what you expect from a &quotresident" (it sounded like it was his part-time job)
but then again it's the people that voted him in so many times. it wasn't our saying that he had to be &quotresident".

and for belgium... well even tho they are our little brother (from the dutch) i gotta place them in the lower countrys. they are almost 2 year whitout a government (world record) and they are getting behind. their numbers are not up to date anymore. and they fail to give the EU any insight on the country.

Which is perfectly understandable from a capitalistic point of view. But as I said, hypocritics are hypocritics no matter what... also I'm not too fond of capitalism.


what 1 calls hypocrit calls the other smartness. and i'm pro capitalism =)

But they pushed Papandreu away which gave place to such idiots.
and Papandreu wasn't a idiot?
finaly after there is a agreement he wants to ask the people if they agree. clearing evrything said during the making of the agreement.
ofcours the people vote no. the people don't want to pay anything they only want to get money.

Anyway, I'm not saying the 'oor' countries are faultless; but the other countries aren't either,


actualy is evry country in europe in debt. some just more then others. and some more then they are able to pay back.

and during the crisis I lost some esteem I had for the EU and it's management.


i still believe in the working of the countrys that once started the EU. i think that about allcountrys that joined the EU later are only giving problems (this was my idea about the EU also befor the crisis and even befor the euro)

now i'm realy going to bed i got only 4 more hours of sleep left =(


Are you really saying that the more poor is a country and the more national debt it has, the more easy its citizens' life is?


no i'm not saying that.
the countrys have never been discribed as &quotoor" countrys. so no i wasn't saying that.
what i said is that you had a easy life the last 50 year.
and NOW that is over. you all are crying because you don't have something anymore that you couldn't affort anyway.

Norway is not part of the EU


my bad, it was sweden ofcours. (i knewed it was 2 of the 3 scandinavian countrys. i picked the wrong 1 it seems)
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

1 last note:

Which is perfectly understandable from a capitalistic point of view. But as I said, hypocritics are hypocritics no matter what... also I'm not too fond of capitalism.


china does it in a 100 times bigger scale then europe and america. and still it's considered communism =P
goumas13
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goumas13
4,752 posts
Grand Duke

greece was all this time known in europe as "that relaxed country where people don't have to work hard

So what?
Sorry buddy but a stereotype is not a really valid statement. Honestly, what anybody thinks about Greece (or does not think) is irrelevant.
they are great people.
it's fact that they only had to work till their 54

Nope. Greece's average retirement age is 61.
But anyway since we are on the topic of retirement ages, lets lake a look at the average retirement age of five countries. Average retirement age:
61 in Greece
62 in Germany
59.4 in France
61.6 in Belgium
62 in Denmark

As you see the "average" retirement age in aforementioned five countries is pretty much the same. Key word average, we are not talking about exceptions and isolated cases.

Source:2009 Ageing Report

And that was two years ago, now Greece has raised the retirement age and imposed penalties on early retirement.

meanwhile they could afford the same luxery as we all had.

Darling you keep confusing the private sector with the public sector again and again. The Government and their friends did all that ****. The regular citizens just couldn't.
The Greek private sector was actually pretty healthy. The Greek household debt is only 61.7 % of GDP. This means the persons did not -really- borrow excessive money, so if they could afford "the same luxury as we all had" was because they *argh* worked. OMG Greeks can work! *faints*

For your information the UK has 103% household debt and the USA 97%.

Bottom line: the Greek government, and their corruption caused this catastrophe, not laziness.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

Nope. Greece's average retirement age is 61.


now it is yes. watch the last 50 year

it's 54
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

anarchists, two days ago, sent an explosive box to a very important manager, that costed him a hand and hurt his eyes.


seems like a prety big thing. how come i havn't seen it on the news =S
can you give me a link to a english source or some names i can search for.
goumas13
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goumas13
4,752 posts
Grand Duke

I can give you a link.

Anarchists claim bomb at Italy tax office Miami Herald

HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

china does it in a 100 times bigger scale then europe and america. and still it's considered communism =P

Never said I like or support China.. which is only pseudo-communistic nowadays anyway
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

Never said I like or support China.. which is only pseudo-communistic nowadays anyway




i know, i was just pointing out that anticipating the future on your own acts so that it comes out the beter for yourself is not a capitalistic only thing. evry1 does it.
and china is by very very much people still seen as that communist country.
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