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DairyHick
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DairyHick
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Nomad

Do you people feel its right for the government to set very high tax rates while also giving out very comfortable government benefits to their non-working population. *Cough* *Cough* Europe!!! *Cough* *Cough*

For example, I used to live in The Netherlands. My father made quite a big salary of 9,000 Euros a month. However, he lost 60% of his salary to taxes. That is 5400 Euros a month, leaving him with 3600 Euros!

I feel that these high tax rates destroy peoples incentive to work hard. When giving out quite comfortable government benefits (about 1200 Euros a month) to the non-working community will surely create a society full of lazy ^%!^@'s.

No wonder Europe is in its terrible condition today.

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

I believe that taxes should be lowered to allow more people to increase their consumption (C), and hence move the Aggregate Expenditure curve of their economies, rather than sucking their money off through taxes.

And yes, high tax rates does destroy the incentive to work. And when you couple that with the pension systems, it's doubly horrible.

For example, if a Greek Civil servant dies, and his daughter is not married, she can continue receiving his pension even when she has a job if I'm not wrong. That's outrageous. Austerity measures on the welfare system should be implemented, because that's what's dragging Europe down. Germany did it in the past, and with its leaner welfare system, it can still power its economy. Australia has such a problem too if I'm not misinformed.

Of course such measures shouldn't be tightened too fast since we must look after the people in poverty still. But in the long run, I hope to see solid reforms in the welfare states.

DairyHick
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DairyHick
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Nomad

@nichodemus

Its very heart warming to see a fellow AGer that dedicates some thought into matters like these.

Of course such measures shouldn't be tightened too fast since we must look after the people in poverty still. But in the long run, I hope to see solid reforms in the welfare states.


I just wanted to say that I have absolutely nothing against social benefits for people whom actually deserve it. What angers me is that people like this this can get away with government money. This man lives in the UK and like another quarter million of UK's population he simply lives off government benefits while he is perfectly capable of working.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

I can only say that I'm astounded by such loopholes in the system.

partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

Do you people feel its right for the government to set very high tax rates while also giving out very comfortable government benefits to their non-working population. *Cough* *Cough* Europe!!! *Cough* *Cough*


not whole europe. only the more richers countrys that are able to do this.

For example, I used to live in The Netherlands. My father made quite a big salary of 9,000 Euros a month. However, he lost 60% of his salary to taxes. That is 5400 Euros a month, leaving him with 3600 Euros!


be glad he didn't make 3000 a month more then he could pay 80%
but i wonder if you actualy know how the tax rates in the netherlands work or that you only have lived here wwhile you were young and only heared the story's of your father.

from those 60% you mentioned he ddn't had to actualy pay 60%. he had to pay 60% only over they amount of a few 1000. from 7000 to 12000 or something like that. and 40% over 4000 to 7000 and only 20% over 0 to 4000
(numbers arn't right just a rough sketch of how it works)
on the street and during conversations we say we have to pay 60% but in reality we don't.

I feel that these high tax rates destroy peoples incentive to work hard. When giving out quite comfortable government benefits (about 1200 Euros a month) to the non-working community will surely create a society full of lazy ^%!^@'s.


the average amount that people get after they have lost their job is 70% of the average payout from the last 26 weeks. also for people to get this money they need to have been working atleast 60 weeks in the last 2 year. if they didn't they do not get this money.

they get this money for max 1 year and max 2 year if you have worked for the same company the last 5 year. during this period you are forced to search for work. (atleast 5 applications eatch week)

after this period and you still don't have a new job then you will no longer get the money. instead you will get money from a other branch of the government. they will pay you only 600-800 euro a month. (not 1200)
and you will still be forced to look for work.
(if you don't look for work in either branch. then you will not get any money at all. then it's time to become a bum )

and people that can not work because of a disability need to do a test every few months to check if they are still "labor inappropriate" only people that are "labor inappropriate" for more then 80% do not have to do anything to get money (around the 1200 indeed). all the people that are less then 80% are helped by the government to find work for them that they are still able to do even tho they have disabilities.during this process they get from 700 to 1200 a month.

the government is not a throw random money around to useless people type of government. they tickle us to start working and to do your best. there are lots of safety nets when you are unable to find work (fit for you.) but if you as person do not want to work then the government will no longer pay you money. aslong you can show that you are willing to work then the government will help you untill youve found work.

i dunno when was the last time you were in the netherlands (what age) but i can asure you that most of the dutch want to work and are working hard for their money. (WE ARE NOT THE GREEK)

No wonder Europe is in its terrible condition today.


tell me what part of the world isn't in terrible condition?
and don't say china. china also has money problems. even tho they are not in debt.

I believe that taxes should be lowered to allow more people to increase their consumption


they way used in the netherlands makes sure that the average income is higher then when you let people out to rot away. by giving people that do not have work money. they are able to take a shower, buy clothes, buy some things needed to look good to find a job. when a bum walk in a office he wont get a job anyway loonly based on how he looks. it might be the smartest man around but he looks and smells like a nutjob he lives under a tree in a box. you going to give him the job? NO!!
also this way you can make sure that people that have no job. can still buy food. can still live in a house. etc. etc.
it's just beter for society to give these people money then to keep evrything to themself and only get richer yourself (isn't that what the 99% wanted in usa? )

And yes, high tax rates does destroy the incentive to work.


highly depends on what the people get in return for their tax.
i have no problem paying near 80% when i know i get all this in return. it's beter then paying only 30% and their are almost no safety nets to fall into when you need them.

For example, if a Greek Civil servant dies, and his daughter is not married, she can continue receiving his pension even when she has a job if I'm not wrong. That's outrageous. Austerity measures on the welfare system should be implemented, because that's what's dragging Europe down. Germany did it in the past, and with its leaner welfare system, it can still power its economy. Australia has such a problem too if I'm not misinformed.


the biggest missunderstanding from people outside europe is that they think that evrey country in europe is the same like every state in usa is the same.

but europe has no constitution, the european constitution was denied because the netherlands and UK didn't agree whit it. after that no1 has tryed to make a new constitution for europe that all the countrys agree whit.
untill that time every european country has it's own laws and it's own way of doing things.
those things you discrubet about greece. i can 100% asure you that doesn't happen ever in the netherlands.

What angers me is that people like this this can get away with government money. This man lives in the UK and like another quarter million of UK's population he simply lives off government benefits while he is perfectly capable of working.


then use the UK as example. not the netherlands. in the netherlands it;s near impossible to live your whole live whitout working.
it wasn't always like this in the 70's and 80's the law was different and people were not forced to search for work when they lost their job. so some people worked for 2 year and then the rest of their live they could get 80% of their last payout. this however is not the case anymore since mid 90's.

people like this this can get away with government money.

that is something that is 100% impossible in the netherlands.
don't blame 1 country for the doing of a other.
europe = 27 countries not 1
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

tell me what part of the world isn't in terrible condition?
and don't say china. china also has money problems. even tho they are not in debt.

Easy, Singapore.

the biggest missunderstanding from people outside europe is that they think that evrey country in europe is the same like every state in usa is the same.


those things you discrubet about greece. i can 100% asure you that doesn't happen ever in the netherlands.


It's merely highlighting one of the absurd welfare treatments people get, and not as a slap on label for everyone. I don't think I mentioned that.

they are able to take a shower, buy clothes, buy some things needed to look good to find a job. when a bum walk in a office he wont get a job anyway loonly based on how he looks. it might be the smartest man around but he looks and smells like a nutjob he lives under a tree in a box. you going to give him the job? NO!!


So you're telling me that by taxing someone by 60%, he is letting someone else take a shower and so the other guy can get a job? Souns absurd to me.

And Europe has a high number of countries that spends ALOT on social welfare.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Social-expenditures-2001-OCSE.png
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

And the Dutch system does have its weaknesses too.

Three scenarios:


Deal 1: Apparently if you reside in the Netherlands (a resident, not necessarily a citizen) and work for an under-paid job (by Dutch standard, 1000euro/month is considered under-paid), and you also happen to live in an âover-paidâ apartment/house (letâs say the monthly rent is 400euro/month), you are then eligible to apply for the national rental subsidy, which the government would spare you hundred something cash every month into your little pocket. By the way, just saying, the Dutch government already has this super cheap welfare housing in every municipality for the âless fortunateâ.

Deal 2: If you are registered as a student in the Netherlands (for Dutch citizen only), you would receive a monthly pocket money from the government for at least 4 years plus free traveling of the Dutch public transportation system (the expensive bus and train are all free!). But the rate of pocket money is different, judging from if you still live with your parents or not. Obviously if you are registered to live away from your parents youâd receive 250euro/month, if not you would only get 90euro/month. As far as I know, most Dutch students still stick to their parents through most of their twenties, while âlivingâ in a different place close to their school.

Deal 3: If you reach 18 and become a university student (not only Dutch but for all EU citizen) in Holland, you could immediately request a student loan from the government (if you think your 300euro/month subsidy couldnât sustain a student life with 1000euro/year tuition). Letâs say a pothead who just reached 18 claim 600 euro/month from the loan. Even if his parents came to the tax office and told them his son is a no good pothead and can never repay his student loan, the loan is most likely to be granted, for the age 18 is the legal age for individual to bear their responsibilities fully. The fun part here is that if that pothead miraculously does finish his degree, but he canât find a decent job within the four years after graduate, the government would send a guy to check the situation and would deem the dude incapable of bearing the financial burden and therefore cancel all the student loan debt he took during his university period. Isnât that sweet?

DairyHick
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DairyHick
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Nomad

@Party Devil

Wow... Its hard to come by someone so well read on this topic. You have corrected my on more than a couple of points that I have made that seem to have been exaggerated. I stand corrected on all of those. I just want to make clear that I wasn't specifically trying to down-talk the average Dutchman in their ways. I was merely presenting some real life situations that I thought were a accurate and legit examples.

No wonder Europe is in its terrible condition today.


I suppose I should add to this. Of course I know the government benefits is not the main underlying reason for this. More like stupid decisions made by people (Example, "Greece Going Green&quot and the inflexibility in monetary alterations throughout Europe.
partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

Easy, Singapore.


i guess it depends on what you understand whit terrible conditions.

economicly the netherlands still got some of the highest ratings. and is absolutly not terrible aswell.
we can pay all our bills and there is no sign we are gonna do worse.
however are we a import-export country located in europe. if the other european countrys fails we make less money. and fall back aswell.
(we don't need the world biggest harbor only for that little country of ourself. )

So you're telling me that by taxing someone by 60%, he is letting someone else take a shower and so the other guy can get a job? Souns absurd to me.

why is that absurd?
it gives people that have no work and no money an opportunity to find work so they can then also help society and not sit on the street getting drunk.
people that lose their job. do not fall in a empty hole. they are helped to get a other job. whats wrong whit that?

And Europe has a high number of countries that spends ALOT on social welfare.


since when i social welfare a bad thing?
btw those green countrys that spend alot are also the countrys that are financialy more stable

And the Dutch system does have its weaknesses too.

every system has it's weaknesses. there is no such thing as perfect.
it's just a matter of finding the weaknesses and try to fix them wich might open a weakness somewhere els. wich we have to find again later. it will never be perfect.

deal 1:
a subsidy so that people can keep living under a roof. and not in a box under a tree.
whats wrong whit it?
i rather have people live in houses then on the street.

deal2:
it's all true and not only 4 year but even till 10 years after the 1st time you have taken this money. so if your 21 when you got it for the 1st time you can get this money untill your 31 aslong your are being a full time or part time student (no home classes or evening school)

however what they do not say from where you have copyed this. is that you have to pay 90% of ALL the money back when you are done whit your study. 1st 2 year whitout intrest rate and after thatwhit 6% intrest rate. most dutch people spend 10 years+ on paying them back and in the end have given more money they they got while going to school.
it's a rent not a subsidy.

(i hope that clears that myth)

deal 3:
If you reach 18 and become a university student


the biggest understanding here is that dutch university's are not like uk or usa university's
in the netherlands we have different layers of how good the school is. where in the uk and usa people go to university anyway. just like evry1 go's to high school and kindergarden.
in the netherlands every1 go's to "vmbo - havo - vwo"max and after that they are 16 they can go to "mbo - hbo" when they are done whit that they are either 18 or 22 only then they can go to university.
and only about 8% of the population actualy go's to university and can get this money. it is only ment for the smartest people around.


Let�s say a pothead who just reached


by this sentens i already know you got this BS from a text of wich the writer disliked the dutch or atleast doesn't know any.
(source plz.)

Wow... Its hard to come by someone so well read on this topic.

almost basic knowlets in the netherlands.
it's just how our system works.

every1 has lost it's job sometime and then you fall into 1 of those safety nets. you then learn what to do and how it works.
(same for the student myths from nicho)
partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

btw those green countrys that spend alot are also the countrys that are financialy more stable


except for belgium xD but thats because they are way behind because they didn't had a government for almost 2 year.
DairyHick
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DairyHick
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Nomad

I suppose I can change to topic of this discussion a little.
So lets talk about countries that have low tax rates, I am currently resided in China and I often travel between mainland and Hong Kong. The tax rates over here can reach as low as 10%.

Couldn't someone argue that China's MASSIVE economical growth in the past two or three decades could have been partially due to its low tax rates? I mean, lower tax rates does mean increase in aggregate demand.

partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

Couldn't someone argue that China's MASSIVE economical growth in the past two or three decades could have been partially due to its low tax rates?


China's MASSIVE economical growth in the past two or three decades


there are more then 1 reason why this happend/happening.
but i would not put it in the direction of low tax rates. (maybe indirectly but not directly)
the biggest factor for the growth is
1. the cheap import of commodities from developing countrys. that can be turned to actual products for a cheap price aswell. and then exported to the richer countrys for a much higher price.
2. the reason why labor is so cheap in china is because the government is manualy keeping the value of their money low by printing more money when they see the value rise.
if they havn't done that for atleast the last 15 year. then their value would be above that of the usa by now and labor would no longer be cheap in china.

those 2 are the main 2 reasons and their are a few more less importend. but i would not put the chinese growth on their tax rate.
DairyHick
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DairyHick
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Nomad

Again Party Devil! I would have to agree with the majority of what you just had stated

Just FYI

the reason why labor is so cheap in china is because the government is manualy keeping the value of their money low by printing more money when they see the value rise


The chine government does keep try to keep its currency relatively weak in order to attract international trade partners. However they do not print extra money to do so. In a nutshell, they use a method in where the trader who is buying from china doesn't have to purchase the Chinese currency but can simply pay for the product with their own currency. For example, If A Netherlander wanted the trade with China, the firms would simply say "don't bother buying our Chinese Yuan first, we accept your Euro". This way there won't be a high demand for the CNY on the exchange markets thus keeping the price low .
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

2. the reason why labor is so cheap in china is because the government is manualy keeping the value of their money low by printing more money when they see the value rise.
if they havn't done that for atleast the last 15 year. then their value would be above that of the usa by now and labor would no longer be cheap in china.


That and because wages in China need time to rise. China still has a lot to catch up with the West, and wages were never high during Britain's Industrial Revolution for example.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

why is that absurd?
it gives people that have no work and no money an opportunity to find work so they can then also help society and not sit on the street getting drunk.
people that lose their job. do not fall in a empty hole. they are helped to get a other job. whats wrong whit that?


Because why should the majority of my hard earned cash go to someone else? I'm okay with taxes, but not that high. Furthermore, there are people who don't look for jobs but simply live off Social Security.

And I already put in the source. The source in itself is subjective, but it does point out a lot of loopholes people can take advantage of .

Deal One


Why should someone be taxed for you to live in an apartment you clearly can't afford?
partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

Because why should the majority of my hard earned cash go to someone else? I'm okay with taxes, but not that high. Furthermore, there are people who don't look for jobs but simply live off Social Security.


it happens to every1. when it happens to you, your happy they help you.
and it doesn't only help them. it helps me aswell because now i don't have to live whit noisy drunk bums around my house. it's just beter for society to have every1 living in a house and atleast looking good enoufg to get some sort of a job. and not have lots of outcasts that are just doomed for their lifes.

Why should someone be taxed for you to live in an apartment you clearly can't afford?

our country is very small. still we are whit 16.5 million people.
so ground is very expensive. (much people - not much ground) a appartment of 400 euro may sound much to you but there is not much that costs less. maybe 330 if your lucky but thats probably a student appartment whit only 1 kitchen and shower etc.

it's just being social so that every1 can live in a house.
i don't see why you would want other people to live on the street.

as for people that are not willing to work. aka not going to search for work. they do not get any money. you have to come by every week or 2 weeks to show what you have done to find work. if you have done something then they will help you. when you have done nothing they send you back home and to come back the next week or 2 weeks. they do this 3 times if you have not done anything or not enoufg they will stop giving you money and help.

so my tax money only go's to those that are willing to work and not only sit home playing video games.

And I already put in the source. The source in itself is subjective, but it does point out a lot of loopholes people can take advantage of .


ive readed parts of that site and it is only talking about the possitive sides. of you take only those you get loopholes. but there are other things you have to do to get all that. if you don't do those things then you don't get any of it. this way the government keeps you busy in times you normaly easly would give up. and it creates ALOT of extra jobs in the government itself aswell.
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